[Jeeper]

Originally Posted by jovifan93

Why is pointing out Jon's good looks (don't share the feeling about Richie though TBH) sexist? Hell, even I as a straight guy have to admit Jon is a very attractive/beautiful person. Yeah, more in the sense of cool/wanting to be more like him (in the earlier days), but still it *is* a huge factor of his success. Don't tell me it's all about the music, if Jon were dog ugly (what's so ugly about dogs BTW? ), it wouldn't be as much fun to see them live. I'd probably just listen to the CDs, but I'd have to think longer about it to be sure...

This IS tongue in cheek, right?


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[JackieBlue]

Originally Posted by Becky

You were both being sexist jerks by basically saying Jon's fans are too blinded by his looks to see his flaws. You two were the ones who decided to dismiss other fans as if you don't have your own GLARING biases.

Obviously, I was being sarcastic when I said Richie was dog ugly. Since you missed that point too, I was saying he's attractive too and has his fair share of fans who find him attractive. Therefore, if you don't want to have your judgement dismissed, you shouldn't do so to others. Or get off your high horse acting like you think Jon's fans are just little fangirl idiots drooling over his rear end.

No one remains a fan of a band for 30+ years because someone looks good. There is a lot more to it than that. Both of your posts were sexist, which is pretty bad considering you're both female. You're being dismissive of both Jon's fans and his talent by acting like people only care about his looks and not his voice, songwriting, intelligence, ambitions, kindness, etc...

As for how did this become fan vs. fans, because you both took the first swipes and I'm sure going to throw it back in your hypocritical faces so you'll know how it feels. As I said, if you don't want to be dismissed, don't be dismissive.

Becky, I hate to disappoint you, but you have never made ANY point, sarcastic or otherwise, that flew over my head. Don't flatter yourself. I simply returned your sarcasm in kind. I included the little emoticon as a clue; but perhaps you missed that. Or maybe it was my humor you didn't quite catch. That would be perfectly understandable, since you don't expect Sambora fans to have any. (Not that there was any judgment whatsoever in THAT comment, was there, Pot? I could search for the exact quote, but I won't bother. That would just give you another opportunity to cry, "Cyberstalker!!" and try to show everybody how, oooh, scary I am...)


I will repeat that I referred to ONE woman based on a comment that she herself made. I found it amusing because I had seen the same attitude reflected in SOME - not all - of Jon's fans. And among fans of other celebrities, too; but this particular article happened to be about Jon.

Just because you can't see the humor in that kind of behavior, don't accuse me of implying that it's typical of an entire group of fans, because I did no such thing. (And I didn't take swipes at anyone, except that one woman and fans who act like her so, sorry, but the JxR thing is still on you and your perceptions.)

Are you going to try to tell me, with anything remotely resembling a straight face, that you HAVEN'T seen that kind of reaction among some of Jon's fans? Or maybe you only noticed it among Richie's.

The only comment in my post that you could possibly take as referring to anyone besides that ONE fan, was the first sentence in that paragraph where I said that "there are probably SOME people who don't need (or want) such misdirection; and A FEW who might actually resent someone taking the spotlight off of Jon, even momentarily."

Short grammar lesson: SOME and A FEW are both used to distinguish from ALL (i.e., to separate from the general group), and are specifically used to distinguish those to whom they refer from MOST or THE MAJORITY of the others in the same group.

That said, would you agree that there may be a few such fans among Jon's fans, as there are among Richie's, or Paul McCartney's, or Justin Bieber's or Elvis's? Or any other celebrity who ever had his picture airbrushed, or wore right clothes, or stood in front of his fans and swung his hips to focus the fans' attention on him?

And over 30 years, you surely MUST have noticed how Jon puts his hands on his head and rolls his hips like a belly dancer/stripper, or read where he told his barber-father that he wanted his hair long "to attract chicks"? Or how he pauses dramatically every time he sings, "Do we got it anymore?" until enough exuberant fan squeals reassure him that he does, in fact, still have "it" so he can finish the song. (Fan squeals that, with all due respect to our gender, sound overwhelmingly female to me, but could, of course, have some males voices mixed in. One never knows, ya know?)

If you haven't noticed Jon doing that or observed that kind of reaction among ANY of Jon's fans then you must be truly blinded by your own superior attitude. I've certainly noticed similar behaviors among Richie and his fans. (Although I must admit, I'm still waiting for the stripper bellydance moves. I guess that would be hard for him to pull off with a guitar in his hands. And just in case you didn't pick up on it, yes, that was a joke. But I digress...)

If you HAVE noticed such behaviors, then I guess you will just have to admit that I am no more sexist or dismissive than you are. But you probably won't. And why should you when it's so much easier to just label someone a sexist?

I couldn't care less that you dismiss me, Becky. If I did, I'd be in a world of hurt, because you've done nothing but that ever since I started posting on JT. That is, until I say something that gets under your transparently thin skin, then it's "Katie, bar the door!" So, please, feel free to dismiss me all you want if that's what floats your boat or gets you through the night; but don't accuse me of being something I'm not or of saying something I didn't say just because something I DID say crawled up your tight ass and irritated it.

And could you, for once, just be honest about why you get pissed off? It has nothing to do with my comments being sexist, because they aren't, nor are they insensitive to body image struggles that people may have had, or any of the other discriminatory buzzwords you have tried to hide behind. Your anger has nothing to do with any of that and you trivialize true discrimination when you try to pretend that it does.

You show me where anything in my post was in any way sexist, except in your small narrow mind, or where I said anything at all about Jon's fans in general, and perhaps I will be able to take your moral outrage a little more seriously. Until then all I can see is you disagreeing with what I said and getting pissed off about it, but ducking behind an excuse like discrimination so you won't have to take personal responsibility for your own anger.

[Becky]

Originally Posted by Eveline

I can only imagine the masses of love struck women who don't even think twice about Jon's shot voice, having so much to relish in instead.

No need to thank me. You earned being called a sexist jerk. Bravo.

[jovifan93]

Originally Posted by Jeeper

This IS tongue in cheek, right?


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No, I'm serious. Perhaps it comes across other than I intended, but no, not tongue in cheek. Why?

[Becky]

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

Becky, I hate to disappoint you, but you have never made ANY point, sarcastic or otherwise, that flew over my head. Don't flatter yourself. I simply returned your sarcasm in kind. I included the little emoticon as a clue; but perhaps you missed that. Or maybe it was my humor you didn't quite catch. That would be perfectly understandable, since you don't expect Sambora fans to have any. (Not that there was any judgment whatsoever in THAT comment, was there, Pot? I could search for the exact quote, but I won't bother. That would just give you another opportunity to cry, "Cyberstalker!!" and try to show everybody how, oooh, scary I am...)


I will repeat that I referred to ONE woman based on a comment that she herself made. I found it amusing because I had seen the same attitude reflected in SOME - not all - of Jon's fans. And among fans of other celebrities, too; but this particular article happened to be about Jon.

Just because you can't see the humor in that kind of behavior, don't accuse me of implying that it's typical of an entire group of fans, because I did no such thing. (And I didn't take swipes at anyone, except that one woman and fans who act like her so, sorry, but the JxR thing is still on you and your perceptions.)

Are you going to try to tell me, with anything remotely resembling a straight face, that you HAVEN'T seen that kind of reaction among some of Jon's fans? Or maybe you only noticed it among Richie's.

The only comment in my post that you could possibly take as referring to anyone besides that ONE fan, was the first sentence in that paragraph where I said that "there are probably SOME people who don't need (or want) such misdirection; and A FEW who might actually resent someone taking the spotlight off of Jon, even momentarily."

Short grammar lesson: SOME and A FEW are both used to distinguish from ALL (i.e., to separate from the general group), and are specifically used to distinguish those to whom they refer from MOST or THE MAJORITY of the others in the same group.

That said, would you agree that there may be a few such fans among Jon's fans, as there are among Richie's, or Paul McCartney's, or Justin Bieber's or Elvis's? Or any other celebrity who ever had his picture airbrushed, or wore right clothes, or stood in front of his fans and swung his hips to focus the fans' attention on him?

And over 30 years, you surely MUST have noticed how Jon puts his hands on his head and rolls his hips like a belly dancer/stripper, or read where he told his barber-father that he wanted his hair long "to attract chicks"? Or how he pauses dramatically every time he sings, "Do we got it anymore?" until enough exuberant fan squeals reassure him that he does, in fact, still have "it" so he can finish the song. (Fan squeals that, with all due respect to our gender, sound overwhelmingly female to me, but could, of course, have some males voices mixed in. One never knows, ya know?)

If you haven't noticed Jon doing that or observed that kind of reaction among ANY of Jon's fans then you must be truly blinded by your own superior attitude. I've certainly noticed similar behaviors among Richie and his fans. (Although I must admit, I'm still waiting for the stripper bellydance moves. I guess that would be hard for him to pull off with a guitar in his hands. And just in case you didn't pick up on it, yes, that was a joke. But I digress...)

If you HAVE noticed such behaviors, then I guess you will just have to admit that I am no more sexist or dismissive than you are. But you probably won't. And why should you when it's so much easier to just label someone a sexist?

I couldn't care less that you dismiss me, Becky. If I did, I'd be in a world of hurt, because you've done nothing but that ever since I started posting on JT. That is, until I say something that gets under your transparently thin skin, then it's "Katie, bar the door!" So, please, feel free to dismiss me all you want if that's what floats your boat or gets you through the night; but don't accuse me of being something I'm not or of saying something I didn't say just because something I DID say crawled up your tight ass and irritated it.

And could you, for once, just be honest about why you get pissed off? It has nothing to do with my comments being sexist, because they aren't, nor are they insensitive to body image struggles that people may have had, or any of the other discriminatory buzzwords you have tried to hide behind. Your anger has nothing to do with any of that and you trivialize true discrimination when you try to pretend that it does.

You show me where anything in my post was in any way sexist, except in your small narrow mind, or where I said anything at all about Jon's fans in general, and perhaps I will be able to take your moral outrage a little more seriously. Until then all I can see is you disagreeing with what I said and getting pissed off about it, but ducking behind an excuse like discrimination so you won't have to take personal responsibility for your own anger.

You sound quite a bit hostile and angry yourself. Good. My message got across then. You want to generalize fans (which you were doing) and then nitpick over "I used this word, not that one." That's your MO. I would quote you, but since I don't return the favor of keeping track of everything you say, I can can only call you out on your general tone and hypocrisy.

I've never denied that Jon fits the mold of what people find conventionally attractive, but so does Richie. So for a couple of women to be putting down other fans is disheartening. I was purposely dismissive of Richie's fans overlooking his flaws to show you what a hypocrite you were being. Or I guess you've never heard women talked about his sex faces and such. Because, you know, it's all about the music if you prefer Richie. Ha.

I wish that at least the women could act like female Bon Jovi fans have brains in their heads. We've all had to put up with this from males long enough.

[jovifan93]

Originally Posted by Becky

You sound quite a bit hostile and angry yourself. Good. My message got across then. You want to generalize fans (which you were doing) and then nitpick over "I used this word, not that one." That's your MO. I would quote you, but since I don't return the favor of keeping track of everything you say, I can can only call you out on your general tone and hypocrisy.

I've never denied that Jon fits the mold of what people find conventionally attractive, but so does Richie. So for a couple of women to be putting down other fans is disheartening. I was purposely dismissive of Richie's fans overlooking his flaws to show you what a hypocrite you were being. Or I guess you've never heard women talked about his sex faces and such. Because, you know, it's all about the music if you prefer Richie. Ha.

I wish that at least the women could act like female Bon Jovi fans have brains in their heads. We've all had to put up with this from males long enough.

I'm not a woman, but Richie is creepy at times...

[Jeeper]

Originally Posted by jovifan93

. Don't tell me it's all about the music, if Jon were dog ugly (what's so ugly about dogs BTW? ), it wouldn't be as much fun to see them live. I'd probably just listen to the CDs, but I'd have to think longer about it to be sure...

How in any way, shape or form would it be less fun if Jon was ugly?


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[jovifan93]

Originally Posted by Jeeper

How in any way, shape or form would it be less fun if Jon was ugly?


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The music wouldn't be, his voice wouldn't be, but the overall experience would. Take his million watts smile for example - even if it's fake, it just wouldn't be the same without it.

Hmm ok, yeah, maybe ugly is the wrong word. I'd have fun at a Meat Loaf concert, too for example But this is Bon Jovi, this is Jon (yeah, accept it! ), and Jon just always was kind of cool (and still is to a degree, or more like likeable and all). If he weren't, I don't know if I'd become a fan (well at least not at the time when I did. Eventually, of course - that is if I had discovered the band in that case). Might seem superficial, but it's true...

[JackieBlue]

Originally Posted by Becky

You sound quite a bit hostile and angry yourself. Good. My message got across then. You want to generalize fans (which you were doing) and then nitpick over "I used this word, not that one." That's your MO. I would quote you, but since I don't return the favor of keeping track of everything you say, I can can only call you out on your general tone and hypocrisy.

I've never denied that Jon fits the mold of what people find conventionally attractive, but so does Richie. So for a couple of women to be putting down other fans is disheartening. I was purposely dismissive of Richie's fans overlooking his flaws to show you what a hypocrite you were being. Or I guess you've never heard women talked about his sex faces and such. Because, you know, it's all about the music if you prefer Richie. Ha.

I wish that at least the women could act like female Bon Jovi fans have brains in their heads. We've all had to put up with this from males long enough.

Once again, it seems that you have misread me. I'm neither angry nor hostile; but that doesn't mean that I'm just going to sit here and let you get away with accusing me of things that aren't true simply because you perceive them to be.

No worries, though; you can still consider your message received. Just know that you're preaching to the choir.

Generalization is not my standard MO. But I'll admit to picking my words carefully. I try to say exactly what I mean in a way that leaves very little room for misinterpretation. Sometimes it doesn't matter because there will always be people like you who think they know more than I do about me and what I think. I can't help that; but don't try to hold me responsible when you read something into my comments that I never intended or deliberately misunderstand things I've said just so it will fit with your own preconceptions of who I am or what I think.

I'm not going to repeat what I've already said in a futile attempt to further justify myself to you. My words are there and I stand by them. What you choose to believe I mean by them is beyond my control.

You keep bringing up ways that OTT Richie fans act like OTT Jon fans; but I've already acknowledged that some of them do that and I don't know another way to say it. You seem to have it in your mind that if Jon fans do something I'll think it's messed up; but if Richie fans do the same thing I'm going to think it's okay, just because they're Richie fans.

That may be how you operate; but it's not the way I look at things. To me, behavior is behavior, and I don't care where you pitch your tent. Despite what you may believe, I don't hold Richie or his fans to a different standard than I do Jon or his fans. In fact, when it comes right down to it, I try to avoid judging people, period. They're responsible for their own actions and I don't know their stories well enough to make that call. The only criticism I have about Jon fans (and I've said the same thing about Richie fans) is that I despise the way some - and please understand that I mean EXACTLY that; I mean "a portion", as in "not all" - some of them, on both sides, think their guy can do no wrong simply because they like him; and they bash or ridicule the other guy, just because they don't like him and as far as they're concerned he can do nothing right. So they go out of their way to prove it by picking apart everything he says or does, just to make it fit their particular paradigm. That's it. And just to be clear, I don't like it when Richie fans do it any more than I do when Jon fans do it. To me, it's just wrong - regardless of who does it.

I'm not a hypocrite and no matter how many times you say I am, it's not going to change a false accusation into the truth. Just because you believe - have always believed - that I am, like you've always believed that I don't like Jon, doesn't make it a fact.

I'm done with this conversation. I tried to explain that you either misread or misunderstood what I said, but it's clear that you're going to continue believing what you want to believe, regardless of what I say. So I'll save us both some trouble. You just keep on telling me what I believe and what I really mean; and I'll just keep on knowing the truth, whether you believe it or not.

In the meantime we can let people get back to what was being discussed before you decided that Eveline and I were sexist jerks because we expressed opinions that you didn't agree with.

[Becky]

You certainly have no problem deciding what I think and never have. But, your know, if I really misunderstood your intentions, I apologize. I'm not incapable of making a mistake. However, you can't deny what Eveline posted. It was blatantly sexist and dismissive. So since you're so into fairness and not judging people, why is it you didn't question her judgment of "all those women" who can't see past Jon's looks? That's where I see continued hypocrisy. You SAY you don't judge Jon's fans as a group, but you certainly don't stand up for them when someone else does. Your sense of justice seems very one sided despite your protests of fairness. But, whatever.... that's nothing new either.