Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_jovi
You're all over the place with this. It can't both be "Shanks has no right to play guitar on the songs and make it his own, he's too close to the project" AND "As a producer, to stylize it, he should be pushing and fighting for his vision". Those are two directly opposite wishes. I'm trying to see where you're coming from, it's a very specific place.
:"Is it how Jon wants? Yes, at the end of the end. But does Jon want subpar produced albums? No, he just relies too much on Shanks in every other way, who delivers as his wingman, his comfort, his guitar player, his co-songwriter, but he does not deliver as a producer" is where I'm having the most trouble. 2020 was the most hands-off Shanks has been lyrically ever. How is Jon's reliance on him as a co-writer STILL such a hot button issu for an album pretty universally panned?
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I'm not saying he has no right to play and be a co-writer. In fact, I've repeated I think he's talented in both of these roles. But not both as guitarist/writer AND main producer on 6 last records. If I must say what I would like ideally, is that Shanks stays as guitarist and songwriter, part of the band in fact, but not a producer, in that freshness is needed.
What I'm trying to say in part above is that Jon saw Shanks' talents and then relied on them too heavily, especially since Richie is not around, but I would argue probably since the beginning with having Shanks writing with him and Richie for the first time in HAND. Shanks was also the one to introduce Jon to DAW gimmicks and easier ways to finish the songs before recording. While it may be same with any other producer, in this reality we had it was Shanks, and for what it's worth, this dependent relationship between him and Jon created new modern Jovi sound.
In my opinion, it more reflects Shanks talents (which exist for sure) than Bon jovi, the band, talents at the margin. For that margin to be extracted, you need (again, IMO) a more outside approach, a professional, even a world class name that won't be overshadowed by Jon. Again, similar to Bob Rock after producing Metallica. Because Shanks is so much inside, everybody is comfortable, including him. I don't doubt that for WAN he didn't try hard, but those songs are more his than of the band. 2020 in my views is best Shanks work ever for Jovi, as it breathes and production is more natural. Unfortunately material is as it is. On the other hand, today DIY producers are numbered in thousands across the world that could pretty much do the same sonically. E. g. you have brother of Billie Eilish producing billions of views hits in his bedroom after midnight.
In that sense, to relegate Shanks only to producer wouldn't be bad, not because he is a bad songwriter and/or arranger and/or guitarist, but because he is just solid, he is not the iconic Jovi material, and reliance on him is a taint on Jon's legacy as an artist and a businessman that knew how to cut ties and start fresh always (at least before meeting Shanks). But we know this is not possible, so I'd rather he just stays a band member and gives producing powers at least to someone else.
So yes, I think Shanks destroyed WAN. I also think he did very solid job with 2020. But for 20 years and 6 albums, my verdict is that I have no hope of a fresh Jovi sound with him in producing AND co-writing and arrangement role. Without him, I don't argue it would happen, I would just have a legitimate ounce of hope.
EDIT: Fighting for his vision means producer pushing the band to do 10 more takes this evening, so they can work 5 more hours tomorrow and day after tomorrow just jamming on next track, because he is unhappy with how structure is stale on it, and for weeks and weeks of this, against Jon's immediate wishes to go for beach or to Soul Kitchen or whatever. It's not possible when insider is producing. Shanks now is basically a less talented and charismatic acting Richie that decided to self-produce with Jon. He is not pushing them, he is part of the group that needs to be pushed by a professional now