Bounce sound quality/production observations

Aloha !

Sorry Ice, but Richie's got a point by saying it wouldn't be a problem if he would be saying things like TLRF sucks etcetera. No offense.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

i'm not an asskisser whatsoever mate. my point is that simply because i do not choose to dissect everything to the minutest detail (with such cynicism that the conspiracy theorists would be getting scared), doesn't mean i don't have a viewpoint of my own. i haven't deliberately chosen to have a go at ice anywhere, in fact it is him that splits hairs over something as unimportant as a dummy rig. in fact, what i talked about in the other thread was a correct as what he was saying.

and maybe ice, just maybe, i have better places to share my opinions than on a bon jovi message board, discussing things much less trivial than the state of today's mastering process.

Ugh sorry to admit but u do have a point there. Though, SOME things taken down to details are nice to know & debate. But not EVERY thing.


stoney

Sorry man, but I treat everyone the same, regardless of their opinions. If you say something stupid, I'll tell you so. If Richie says he likes TLFR, good for him, doesn't change my view. If he hates it, fine. Again, doesn't change my view. To tell you the truth, I'm not even sure what he thinks of each record, I don't give a damn about it. It's not his opinons on albums that counts, it's the fact that he tries to piss me off in every other post he makes. And I'm baffeled, cause I just can't see why. If he wants to argue, then why doesn't he? If he wants to **** with me, then why doesn't he? I'm up for anything, but he's acting like a kid. Saying stuff but not backing anything up.

Ice

It's all in the details. And cynicism is good for you. As for conspiracies, I couldn't care less. I don't come up with theories on why Bon Jovi do this or that. I don't care.

Dude, you've got some serious comprehension problems... I said you were right and you're talking about splitting hairs? Man, you are ****ed up...

Then maybe, just maybe you shouldn't open your mouth if you're not going to say anything worthwhile. I happen to like discussion, but preferably with people who do have opinions and are not afraid to show them. The likes of you are just a waste of space. Don't post if you have nothing to say.

And if you haven't noticed, I don't dissect everything into pieces. I'm only using it as a way to show some people where their knowledge or information on a subject is limited or wrong. If I don't know enough, I'll shut up. If I don't have anything to add or comment, I'll stay silent. And I think some people should learn to do that as well.


Ice

the fact that you don't find what i say worthwhile is irrelevent. i have nothing more to say. i don't feel like descending into stupidity on a sunday afternoon with a banging headache. we'll agree to disagree.

Ok.

And BTW, my head's been pounding since I woke up. I knew I shouldn't have mixed home-made wine, cider and hard liquer...

Ice

ooooooh, nasty! you running a brewery down there?

Nope, just a party with some friends. Too little time, too much to drink.

Ice

Hello again sorry for the intermission was away from the computer for a while. And man has this gotten nasty?! lol well back to the topic at hand hey,

Ice, I'm not going to try and invalidate everything you replied to me with, as it seems that there are either mis-understandings or you're deliberatley trying to flame me he he But here we go, I'll be as detailed as poss.


please read THIS article

This cleary, acuratley explains the fact, science, and business side to exactly what i'm talking about. Albums are being mastered louder and louder.

Just to clarify this further a pro mastering engineer talks about the same thing HERE

Please dont reply any more on this issue until you've read those.


Ok, now we'ave established that albums are infact being mastered louder and being hit harder at the limit then we come on to the question of taste. You are stating that unequivolcally that Marino and Clearmountain are never wrong or do bad work or that I am not in a position to have an opinion on what they've done? Well I'll think what I want to thank you very much! And I stand by my opinion that they are mastered too hot.

I wouldn't be telling them that they've compressed the songs too much, because if we're going to get technical it is a actually limiting the peaks harder and harder that is causing the ultimate problem. So I would advise them if on the opertunity to perhaps curb the Limiting and Finalizing.

But of course if you have read those articles, you now realise that it is NOT up to the engineers as to how they master the big bucks releases. Its the companies desicion. So I dont necassarily critisize Clearmountain because no doubt he's done amazing work on some of my fav CD's. However you can't deny the facts.

Just to further prove the point, I did a test f my own. I extracted Hook Me Up to Wavelab digital audio editor and scanned the file for the average RMS and it peaks at -11 dB, now I dont have any non-remastered Bon Jovi cd's to hand but I ripped another very successfull commercial CD from 7 years ago (Alanis Morissettes Jagged Little Pill) and found the average RMS value to be -15.5 dB and that is an awful difference in mastering. Just to compare a little more fairly I then tested Alanis's lastest "Under Rug Swept" and found the same -4dB increase standing at around -11dB. ALthough because of the general lack of heavy guitars and drums on the latest alanis the bleeding doesn't come through the speakers as badly as with Bounce.

I would imagine that if you ripped and tested the original masters of slippery, KTF etc they would probably clock in from any where of -19 for the earliest stuff to around -15 / -14 at These Days.

But think we can see, CD's are getting mastered louder. And in the rock genre this is starting to hurt it!

I'm gonna let that lie now cause i think its been beaten to death.

Man do you realise that you just completley agreed with me, you must have read my sentace wrong. I was saying that YES they use acoustic sources for the creation of drum loops in rock/pop music. Originally it was you that was saying opposite.

People do use the Rolands no doubt, but please name where and when one was last used in rock? There cant be many tunes with them featured.

OK! I'll conceede the drum computer/drum loop thing. I was being anal and picky, and it was a pet peeve that I let get the better of me i'm sorry people can call it what they like and I wont say anything anymore about it! I was just throwing the more commonly used terminology in the industry into the general knowledge of the board, thats all.

They are some of the top guys in their field, and if they were mastering some unknown subsidary up-and-coming artist then they'd probably have free reign to master how the hell they liked. But with a release as high profile as Bon Jovi, I'm sure, nearly 100% that they have strict guidelines on dB. Again no dis-credit to them the impression I get formt he industry is that the engineers are crying about being forced into cutting the discs too hot, because its making peoples ears bleed. However their hands are tied.

You're right, I wrongly brought bob rock into the discussion about mastering. I shouldn't have done that - it was a cheap un-backed up shot at getting my point across that I prefer the sound of the early production to now. My other arguements have ben far more valid than that.

And finally at the end, the compromises i'm talking about are more artistic and musical - not technical there. You only have to look at the song length to see that, and the kind of Amplifier voicings Richie is suddenly using. Hey i like the heavy shit! it suits it but damn why into that cookie cutter 3 minute format. And the solo's are so simple you cant even pass it off as "artistic discrestion and maturity" cause everyone knows that on the live Bounce shows richie was tearing it up improving all over the place, burning like he did in the 90's - ON THE BOUNCE TUNES. The Distance come to mind firstly.

So there we go....I think i've covered all my bases there.

If any one has the non re-mastered jovi's discs then i'd appreciate an analysis of the average RMS output of the tracks!

thanks for reading if you got this far...

ICE, i know you're gonna slam me again, but really let it go i'm right

ha ha only kidding there's no right and wrong answers in music.

Peace

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