Hypothetically - if Richie was going to come back....

Walleris · #41 05-07-2017, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

(And btw… Since letting people down seems to be reason enough for you to downright hate or detest someone, I guess Jon should be thanking his lucky stars that you didn’t buy tickets and make travel arrangements for the two cancelled shows in Denver. Do you understand, now, what I was talking about?)

Your "Richie not showing up in 2013 vs. Jon cancelling in 2017" analogy has always been flawed and you're smart enough to know it, so it disappointing that you still keep using it to fit your points to defend Richie.

Rdkopper · #42 05-07-2017, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walleris

Your "Richie not showing up in 2013 vs. Jon cancelling in 2017" analogy has always been flawed and you're smart enough to know it, so it disappointing that you still keep using it to fit your points to defend Richie.

Yeah, Jackie! What's up with that!

First of all, it was only 1 night, not 2

Second, cancelling 1 show due to an illness with an explanation & an apology is justifiable. Not showing up to 85 shows with no explanation is a **** you!

But do we really need to explain this? I agree, you should be much smarter than that!!!

Eveline · #43 05-07-2017, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdkopper

Second, cancelling 1 show due to an illness with an explanation & an apology is justifiable. Not showing up to 85 shows with no explanation is a **** you!

Actually, Richie did excuse himself but it seems his reasons weren't good enough to get away with murder.

Quote:

Originally Posted by nikos greece

inside me i cant believe richie just didnt went to work one day and since then noone talked to noone again...if for example richie had taken sth wasnt in a position to travel or perform he d probably take the next plane, he d miss a show.
there was a uk promo gig in 2013 where jon critisized richie on camera for not showing up for a rehearshal to watch football on tv...i think all these incidents are indications of bigger inside problems in the band. on the one side tico and david backed jon 100% and didnt seem to want richie back, on the other side i think jon probably took richie for granted and didnt pay him the respect he deserved the last years so they grew apart..there is a small sentence that jon used a couple times, his manager paul korzilius called and said...guess what??? and without further notice jon realised what happened... if thats the case it shows there were fears he wouldnt come back, there were arguments, there were threats or whatever...
its been 4 years now...it makes me sad that none of them has felt nostalgic enough and gone out of his way to talk to an old friend in person. to be honest and bitter i feel like they didnt truly appreciated what they had and both act too selfish when they dont take the time to meet in person and just talk...if they dont want to reunite thats fine, but none of them has the courage to face the other one???

Yeah, it must have been something running deep and it's certainly more of tentative explanation than the full truth (which we may never know). With the previous break up (or hiatus or whatever you want to call it) Tico and Dave sided with Rich and even went with him on tour. Now it's the other way round which makes me think it was more of a personal issue between Jon and Richie and not the whole band. Yeah, it could be lack of respect, it could be about other people involved (Shanks and the like?), it could be about other ventures, it could be just anything and most likely, a combination of a few factors. I wouldn't take Jon's words for granted as when it comes to the TOTAL lack of communication because they did admit to texting/phoning each other. Who knows, maybe they did try to connect at some point but they failed and it's easier to say their paths diverted than to admit the failure. Still, it's very much open and miracles do happen. The only thing that's really needed is being the more mature one and extending your hand. It always takes the first step and then the real willingness on both sides to sit, listen, apologize and come to agreement what to do next. Yeah, forgiving is one thing but it doesn't change much besides being free of guilt and/or hate yourself.

Captain_jovi · #44 05-07-2017, 04:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eveline

Actually, Richie did excuse himself but it seems his reasons weren't good enough to get away with murder.

Because sickness is not in the same boat as realizing mid tour you want more time with your daughter. If there's a bigger reason there's a bigger reason but if that's what he's going with then that's what it is.

Captain_jovi · #45 05-07-2017, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

I don't know that anybody would want him back if it's just going to be by the numbers. Like Rosa and Nikos said, if they aren't on the same page and there's no real desire to work together, they would probably wind up in the same place they are now with nothing remotely worthwhile to show for their effort.

I wouldn't hold my breath to see if they agree that "we should know it" if there was a bigger reason, especially if it would in any way reflect badly on Jon or the band. I'm realizing more and more that the only dirty laundry that can't get aired is Jon's. And that's not taking a shot at him. That's just a fact.

You've said several times that it's not our job to play detective or find a bigger meaning. I'm not trying to back you into a corner or challenge you in any way; but I'm curious. Do you truly believe that when Richie left the band that he's been a part of, and that has been a part of him, for over 30 years, he had no reason that runs deeper than what we've been told? That he just decided not to show up?

Of course it's okay to feel the way you do. And I don't think Jon forgiving Richie would make you feel better about your cancelled shows, for sure. I can't imagine anything that would at this point. If the resentment over that is still hanging around after all this time, my guess is that it probably won't go away any time soon. But as you said, you're allowed to carry a grudge. I tried to make it clear that I wasn't judging you or anybody else for how you feel. I just don't understand it. But that's my problem, not yours or theirs.

This isn't about Jon or Richie; it's about fan reactions. I'm confused about why some of the same people who are still so upset with Richie for canceling shows and letting people down saw absolutely nothing wrong with Jon canceling Denver twice in one month. Nearly every single person involved in that discussion felt bad for the Denver fans, but with one or two exceptions, there was no outrage directed towards Jon for breaking his commitment to them and letting them down. Some even thought it was a smart business move. It was just understood that Jon HAD to reschedule MSG; so canceling Denver and letting those fans down, while unfortunate, was “unavoidable”. WTF? It wasn’t unavoidable. Cancelling the MSG concert because Jon was sick was unavoidable. Rescheduling MSG at the expense of Denver was a choice.

But, iirc, you weren’t the only one who couldn’t see a parallel between Richie letting people down because he didn’t follow through and Jon letting people down because he thought it was more important to reschedule a high-profile gig than it was to keep a commitment that he had already made to Denver.

I have to wonder if the people in Denver would agree with your rationale about broken trust. Or those in Cordoba, since Jon promised in 2013 to make up the shows that were cancelled due to Tico’s surgery “as soon as we can”. But just in the last week or so, he refused to work them into the schedule when he had the opportunity to do so this time around. Or how about the people who were planning to attend the NY State Fair a few years back, or the organizers who were hoping that Bon Jovi would boost the fair’s waning popularity, until a private gig upstaged them? Or Cleveland and Indy. I wonder if their trust needs to be earned back…

Like I said, I’m not judging anyone’s feelings or thought processes. And it’s not that I want people to be pissed off at Jon. I don’t want people to resent either one of them. I just seriously don’t get it. I was disappointed by both Jon’s and Richie's decisions, but I was equally disappointed in both of them for breaking commitments and I didn't lose all faith in either one as a result. Shit happens.

I don't expect everyone to see things the way I do. But help me understand why the same people who turned their backs on Richie because of his lack of follow-through aren't just as pissed off at Jon for letting people down and not following through on his commitments. Why does Richie get crucified while Jon gets a pass for doing the same damn thing? That's what I don't understand.

I know you can’t speak for everyone, but from your own perspective, can you help me see what it is that I'm missing? Is it because you aren’t as personally affected by Jon’s decisions as you were by Richie’s? I realize that you are convinced that Richie's shows were cancelled because of low ticket sales and that he lied when he said he had laryngitis; but I recall that someone raised the point that the Denver show hadn’t sold that well, yet no one jumped to the conclusion that Jon chose to reschedule MSG because Denver had lower ticket sales. Is it because you heard Jon sing with your own ears, so you believed he was sick; whereas you didn’t hear Richie “sound” sick? Surely it's not just because you think Richie lied. If that were the case, I would think that you'd detest Jon since he lies like a rug when he thinks it's necessary. (Again, not a shot at him; just a statement of fact.)

Please don’t think I’m demanding an explanation; I'm not. And I’m not asking you justify or defend your feelings. I’m just curious, because it just seems like such a double standard to me.

But see, for as much as you say you don't like it when people pit one against the other everytime someone backs Richie into a corner you bring up Jon. You've made the point that the big reason people were mad at Richie was Jon's wording in Calgary.

I think the reason one is acceptable and one isn't is logistics and finances. Richie feigned sickness due to low ticket sales, cancelled his tour but still "Had enough in him" to do NYC. Are you implying Jon wasn't actually sick? And cancelled Denver due to low ticket sales? It feels like that's what you're implying. If Richie was actually sick those dates would have been rescheduled when he got better but they weren't. Having a one off full tour date in Denver after the tour is done is completely different for the band than for Richie due to the amount of what they're bringing. They could do a one off acoustic show or something smaller but fans would still say that's unfair but I really think they should have made an effort to make it up to Denver.

So to say people don't think it's fair for Denver to justify your issues with Jon for backing Richie into a corner, I don't get it. Again, Denver is not the same as Richie leaving the tour. Getting sick and needing to cancel is not the same as getting home sick and leaving a tour mid run. I know I've said before it's not up to us to figure it out but if Richie had his shit together on his solo run and his shit together post leaving the band it would be far easier to put him in a better light and say "maybe it's not him. maybe there's more going on" but I just don't think so. He's struggling like hell to get anything going 4 years in now. Is this related to why he left the band? Don't know.

Rdkopper · #46 05-07-2017, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

Because sickness is not in the same boat as realizing mid tour you want more time with your daughter. If there's a bigger reason there's a bigger reason but if that's what he's going with then that's what it is.

He left Jon and the fans with NO explanation... His 'I miss my daughter' excuse didn't come out until later...

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JackieBlue · #47 05-07-2017, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walleris

Your "Richie not showing up in 2013 vs. Jon cancelling in 2017" analogy has always been flawed and you're smart enough to know it, so it disappointing that you still keep using it to fit your points to defend Richie.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rdkopper

Yeah, Jackie! What's up with that!...But do we really need to explain this? I agree, you should be much smarter than that!!!

I'm sorry you're disappointed, Walleris, because I'm not being deliberately obtuse; and it's not about defending Richie or judging Jon. I am sincerely trying to understand how people can justify one's actions while condemning the other, when they both let people down by choosing not to keep commitments they made.

Despite people obviously seeing the situations quite differently, ethically speaking, when broken down to the bare facts, it is exactly the same scenario. (Unless you're a huge proponent of situational ethics, in which case we probably don't have enough common ground to stand on for any discussion, not to mention opening up a whole can of worms on both sides of the debate.)

I'm apparently not as smart as you and RDK give me credit for being; but I am smart enough to know that I don't know everything and I can be as blind and ignorant as the next guy. So please, show me where the analogy is flawed.

Taking personalities and personal preferences out of the mix, here's how I see it. (Pay attention, now. I'm an educator, so you just know there will be a quiz.)

Oh, and feel free to join in, RDK.

The Scenario:
Person A and Person B each make a commitment to a group of people.

Before their commitments can be fulfilled, both A and B are faced with a dilemma: each must choose either Door #1 (sucking it up and doing what he said he would do) or Door #2 (doing something else that is more expedient, more lucrative, more convenient, or otherwise preferred, but which also requires breaking the original commitment and letting many people down).

Both A and B choose Door #2.

Ready? Here's the quiz:

Accurately fill in the blanks below with either A or B and give reasons for your answers, using only the information provided in the scenario described above to make your decision.

The majority of spectators approve of the choice made by Person ____ because it just makes good business sense, it's perfectly understandable from a sentimental perspective, and since the logistics alone may have made it impossible to keep his original commitment and take Door #2, he had no choice but to take Door #2.

On the other hand, the same group of spectators lose all respect for Person ____. They disapprove of his choice because they have heard rumors that this type of behavior isn't unusual for him; and he hasn't shared any reasons they believe would justify his actions. Therefore, it was unprofessional, selfish, disloyal, ungrateful, disrespectful, ad naseum, ad infinitum...

Clock's ticking, boys...
https://youtu.be/IzYz0yuefAc

Rdkopper · #48 05-07-2017, 05:24 PM

Jackie, you don't have to write a book to prove your useless analogy...

Jon was injured and not capable whereas Richie was fine and capable..

Having a Sports player sit out a game due to an injury is not the same as a teammate quitting mid season...

If a football player had a concussion and needed to sit out a game because he couldn't give 100%, that makes total sense... Some who quits is a quitter...

If you are an Educator, I feel sorry for your students...And I mean that... It's scary to know that someone of such logic is educating this world.

Eveline · #49 05-07-2017, 05:32 PM

It's said Richie's excuses are too lame for such a dick move on his side. He was not ill, his daughter is a big girl and doesn't need him 24/7. Jon said there was no fight, it wasn't about money. Tico, Dave and the rest of the folks haven't seen him since. There are rumours Richie is still drinking, the water in his bottle isn't holy. The situation is clear: Richie's out of his mind! He;s a selfish prick who just wanted out because he clearly lost it to the bottle. Then he met this chick nicknamed 'Yoko Ono of BJ' and the rest is history.

... But you know what? When you read a crime story, the most obvious suspect rarely turns out to be the murderer, if ever.

Becky · #50 05-07-2017, 06:03 PM

I'm not taking time to read Jackie's continuing saga, but has anyone pointed out the first flaw in her idea of logic? That is, that it was Jon's decision to reschedule Denver in the first place? From the beginning there were questions about the sport events being held around the concert. It may very well have been the venue that made the call to reschedule.

And, if that's such a mortal sin, what about Richie's entire tour that people had made travel plans for and he cancelled?

Blah, blah, blah.

There is ONE PERSON in this group who has a reputation for not showing up. It's not Jon.

Hypothetically - if Richie was going to come back....

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