Hypothetically - if Richie was going to come back....

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

But people aren't just taking how it is on the surface for this. They're taking it from multiple surfaces to form their opinion on what happened. It would be reckless to take Richie leaving the tour at face value and saying Richie is clearly at fault, it's what went down on his own tour and what's gone down in his personal life post tour that are painting a broader picture. Had he left the tour and seemed clear, level headed, projects being released and on tour then absolutely people would have thought something was amiss and maybe he's not to blame.

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

You and I are clearly at opposite ends of the spectrum as far as his tour dates being cancelled because I believe that he did have laryngitis and was told to rest his voice, and you think it was an excuse. You think it was low ticket sales and I think that was just coincidental. So let's put that aside for the moment.

Other than the cancelled shows, help me understand how his behavior at the end of 2012, during the promotion of WAN, and his performance during the 1st leg of the BWC tour fits with your bird's eye view. According to all accounts, he's the one who was on fire during that first leg. IIRC, it wasn't until after it became clear that he wasn't returning to the band that his behavior changed, maybe even after he hooked up with Ori. He caught a lot of flack for the Borg/Lund interference, but that was on them, imo, especially in light of their later legal issues. I seem to recall a drunk-sounding tweet; but other than that he did seem to be on task, 'clear and level-headed' through all of 2013. All the stuff you're referring to happened well after he was out. So how does that paint a different picture for you about why he left the way he did?

At any rate, I still think it's working at a surface level, or judging from the way things appear to be, when we don't know that any of that contributed to why he left. Have you stopped to consider that the erratic performances and the things you see as "off" in his general behavior might just as likely be a result of him being out of the band rather than a cause of it? Whether he brought it all on himself or not, that doesn't alter the fact that his life got turned kaddy-wampus. I would imagine that would tend to throw anybody back on old coping mechanisms.

I don't know, Matt. I don't know any more than anybody else, and I don't pretend to. I'll theorize with the best of them, but I try not to make judgments based on those theories, when I know that's all they are. (Jon's speech at Calgary, notwithstanding. That one I'll cop to. But even that didn't completely change my opinion of him. It pissed me off, no doubt; but it didn't cause me to think he's an ass, in general. Just that once.)

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

But you can't cancel a block of dates because you're sick and have laryngitis and then say "I feel well enough for this last show" and then still say it's a coincidence that ticket sales are low. The dates were never made up. If the sales were healthy I would assume they would be.

My timelines might be off, I remember him vanishing for a bit from the public and once he linked up with Lund and Borg everything went tops up.

Originally Posted by Walleris

Not to mention the fact that it was billed as "postponed due to throat issues" and then conveniently never rescheduled. Why would he not play these shows a week or two later if tickets were sold well?

Originally Posted by Walleris

Come on Jackie, how can you be so reasonable on most things, yet so selective on the shady Richie stuff?

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

Maybe because his day job got in the way? A week or two immediately after those shows were cancelled, he could have still been under the doctor’s instructions. A week or two after the LA show, the Jovi machine was up and running again, promoting WAN and getting ready for the tour. There was about a month from mid-December through mid-January that appears to have been open, if you forget the Christmas holidays; but the venues may have had other things besides Richie on their books and the band may have had other plans by that time. I have no idea; but it seems like he wasn’t just sitting around, twiddling his thumbs, from the end of October, when the shows were cancelled until February 4, when the BWC tour started. He was pretty much on the move the whole time doing Jovi stuff. Here’s the way the rest of 2012 and the beginning of 2013 played out:



Oct 16, 2012 London -Shepherd's Bush Empire



Oct 18 The Electric Factory - Philadelphia, PA (Cancelled – reason given: laryngitis)

Oct 20 The Danforth Music Hall - Toronto, Canada (Cancelled – reason given: laryngitis)

Oct 23 Best Buy Theater - New York, NY (Cancelled – reason given: laryngitis)

Oct 23 Runaway Q&A – New York, NY (Matt Bongiovi confirmed laryngitis and requested no close contact during the photo ops because they suspected that was how Richie got caught the bug in London that led to the laryngitis)

Nov 13 The Fonda Theatre - Hollywood, CA

Nov 16 The Regency Ballroom - San Francisco, CA (cancelled – reason given: scheduling conflict)



(Thanksgiving – November 22)



November 26, 2012 – Travel to NYC

November 27, 2012 – Inside Out event (BJ)

November 28, 2012 – WAN Photo Shoot (BJ)

November 30, 2012 – gig with the boys (BJ)



December 11, 2012 – Travel for 12-12-12 concert

December 12, 2012 – 12-12-12 Concert (BJ)



(Christmas and New Year’s: Tuesday, Dec 23, 2012 - Sunday, Jan. 1, 2013)



January 18, 2013 – in the studio (since AOTL was done, I assume this is for WAN)

January 22, 2013 – flight to London

January 24, 2013 – BBC performance (BJ)

January 26, 2013 – Stuttgart (BJ)

January 29, 2013 – BWC video released (4 vid series – had to be filmed at some time, right??)



February 3, 2013 – Flight East to begin tour



I suppose one could argue that there was plenty of time after Lubbock for him to do the rescheduled dates; but there was a lot of discussion on the “Richie” thread about whether or not he could even do promotion for AOTL for months after Calgary. But I don’t know that.



I never said the shows sold well. I didn’t check them myself, but I believe Matt when he says they didn’t. My point is that even though the shows didn’t sell well, that doesn’t necessarily mean that Richie lied about sick; laryngitis could still be the reason the shows were cancelled. Or you guys could be right; I can’t say categorically that you aren’t. I didn’t go to the Q&A. I just know that my friend who was there told me Richie was definitely sick and that Matt B. told the fans, before the Q&A, that no close contact or hugs were allowed because that was how Richie got sick in the first place.







Selective reasoning isn’t my problem. Neither is selective memory. Using your logic, I guess we could assume that Tico really didn’t have to have surgery, since at least one of the shows that was cancelled because of that has never been rescheduled, even though the promoter tried again to reschedule it during the time Bon Jovi was going to be back in South America this fall. That’s a little tongue-in-cheek because I believe that Tico had to have surgery, and cancellation was unavoidable. But I’m not the one saying that it only makes sense that if someone was sick, the shows would be rescheduled…

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

Maybe because his day job got in the way? A week or two immediately after those shows were cancelled, he could have still been under the doctor’s instructions. A week or two after the LA show, the Jovi machine was up and running again, promoting WAN and getting ready for the tour. There was about a month from mid-December through mid-January that appears to have been open, if you forget the Christmas holidays; but the venues may have had other things besides Richie on their books and the band may have had other plans by that time. I have no idea; but it seems like he wasn’t just sitting around, twiddling his thumbs, from the end of October, when the shows were cancelled until February 4, when the BWC tour started. He was pretty much on the move the whole time doing Jovi stuff. Here’s the way the rest of 2012 and the beginning of 2013 played out:

Oct 16, 2012 London -Shepherd's Bush Empire

Oct 18 The Electric Factory - Philadelphia, PA (Cancelled – reason given: laryngitis)
Oct 20 The Danforth Music Hall - Toronto, Canada (Cancelled – reason given: laryngitis)
Oct 23 Best Buy Theater - New York, NY (Cancelled – reason given: laryngitis)
Oct 23 Runaway Q&A – New York, NY (Matt Bongiovi confirmed laryngitis and requested no close contact during the photo ops because they suspected that was how Richie got caught the bug in London that led to the laryngitis)
Nov 13 The Fonda Theatre - Hollywood, CA
Nov 16 The Regency Ballroom - San Francisco, CA (cancelled – reason given: scheduling conflict)

(Thanksgiving – November 22)

November 26, 2012 – Travel to NYC
November 27, 2012 – Inside Out event (BJ)
November 28, 2012 – WAN Photo Shoot (BJ)
November 30, 2012 – gig with the boys (BJ)

December 11, 2012 – Travel for 12-12-12 concert
December 12, 2012 – 12-12-12 Concert (BJ)

(Christmas and New Year’s: Tuesday, Dec 23, 2012 - Sunday, Jan. 1, 2013)

January 18, 2013 – in the studio (since AOTL was done, I assume this is for WAN)
January 22, 2013 – flight to London
January 24, 2013 – BBC performance (BJ)
January 26, 2013 – Stuttgart (BJ)
January 29, 2013 – BWC video released (4 vid series – had to be filmed at some time, right??)

February 3, 2013 – Flight East to begin tour

I suppose one could argue that there was plenty of time after Lubbock for him to do the rescheduled dates; but there was a lot of discussion on the “Richie” thread about whether or not he could even do promotion for AOTL for months after Calgary. But I don’t know that.

I never said the shows sold well. I didn’t check them myself, but I believe Matt when he says they didn’t. My point is that even though the shows didn’t sell well, that doesn’t necessarily mean that Richie lied about sick; laryngitis could still be the reason the shows were cancelled. Or you guys could be right; I can’t say categorically that you aren’t. I didn’t go to the Q&A. I just know that my friend who was there told me Richie was definitely sick and that Matt B. told the fans, before the Q&A, that no close contact or hugs were allowed because that was how Richie got sick in the first place.



Selective reasoning isn’t my problem. Neither is selective memory. Using your logic, I guess we could assume that Tico really didn’t have to have surgery, since at least one of the shows that was cancelled because of that has never been rescheduled, even though the promoter tried again to reschedule it during the time Bon Jovi was going to be back in South America this fall. That’s a little tongue-in-cheek because I believe that Tico had to have surgery, and cancellation was unavoidable. But I’m not the one saying that it only makes sense that if someone was sick, the shows would be rescheduled…

Originally Posted by Lucky0003

Wow! Just wow! You are really invested in Richie with such details. I'm impressed.


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Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

Those dates shed some light on some things for sure, where did you get them from?...

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

.... I didn't necessarily mean rescheduled while still promoting the album, I mean in the amount of time it's been since the end of 2012. It's probable he was sick, yes, but if low ticket sales didn't have anything to do with it you'd think he'd try again and do shows in those areas in the last 5 years, right? I guess I didn't care for my show being cancelled and him giving the show must go on attitude for the California one.