Is Bon Jovi already a "nostalgia act" ?

Beaky · #21 05-13-2013, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crashed

Whether the album was any good or not - no matter what your opinion on it - really doesn't matter because they could have released the masterpiece of their career and it still wouldn't sell in this music market. So the question is, is that what then makes you a nostalgia act? If it is then every artist that has ever been or ever will be, will eventually become nostalgia because once they reach a certain age their not going to be selling records to new fans any more only established ones.

That is it. Of course it is. Timberlake will be Buble one day, then he'll be Tony Bennett... if he's lucky. Bon Jovi are The Stones but Jon is seriously f*cking that up with release like the last album. He needs to just accept it.

Hence my 'hot mum' reference. You can be 'good for your age', you can have guys who can power lift in the 70s but put them against a kid and it's not right... but Jon keeps trying to lift those weights...

There are degrees of this though.

If WAN was a lasting piece of work, a great album, then existing fans would have added to their collection in their droves. They haven't.

If WAN had been a great album, then existing fans would be saying 'I cannot wait to hear 'Beautiful World' live,' they're not. Some will but it's now a minority.

If WAN had been a great album then as much as Bon Jovi would have been a 'legacy' act, they would have had an album that stood alongside their nostalgic albums, their stand-the-test-of-time back catalogue as a proud new edition and huge numbers of people would have wanted to see them play songs off of it. They would have been relevant to a legion of their own fans.

This band aren't even relevant to most of their long-term fans anymore. 600k sales, worldwide... horrible.

Walleris · #22 05-13-2013, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beaky

That's a totally different question... The answer doesn't actually prove whether the term is relevant or not, but it is; plain and simple. Some people just don't want to accept it.

I've said this elsewhere but everyone keeps asking the same questions but dressing them up *slightly* differently - to measure relevance you have to put them up against relevant music, not their peers. The argument isn't 'are they more relevant than Def Leppard'; that's like saying 'Your mum is smokin' hot for her age... ' Great. But that doesn't mean she should go clubbing with your sister in a mini skirt and grind with 18 year-olds...

That leads on to maturing. Some say that's what Bon Jovi have done, that's what the new music is about.

I would argue that music is about stages in a career. Jon is trying to be relevant to the wrong audience and missing the point that he already has a HUGE back catalogue of songs that are relevant to millions and always will be, because they came about when he WAS Bieber, when he WAS Timberlake. So embrace that.

I don't think it's something to be ashamed of, for the band or their fans. To not be a 'nostalgia' or 'legacy' act you have to have had songs that stand the test of time and you have to make sure you don't burn out, or p*ss on that legacy. This is where they are making a mistake right now, in my opinion. The new songs will not stand the test of time because it's Jon trying to emulate something that doesn't seem to come naturally to him. It's a band that aren't desperate or hungry any more. Consequently, their middle of the road, ploddy output is starting to crowd the set... Who Says, WLOL, LH, Water, Born To Follow, Crash, BWC, WAN, ILTT... to name but a few. The party band are starting to slow to a gentle jog. I know, I wasn't at the last show, it was amazing etc etc... great. I might not have been there but I can bet it wasn't foot to the floor, full throttle, Jon dripping in sweat, covering the whole stage kinda sh*t... this isn't that and he's not to old to deliver it... another topic, another time, all been said.

The fact is, to be a touring colossus after 30 years should be enough for Jon, it's a helluva lot more than most artists will ever get. He wants to sell out the desert and please everyone but he seems to mostly be pleasing himself at the moment.

Let's face it, this conversation wouldn't be taking place for the 24th time in two months if the album had been any good.

Let me paraphrase, so you could actually see what I'm asking.

WHAT BANDS/ARTIST OF BON JOVI's AGE (OR OLDER) DO YOU SEE AS NOT NOSTALGIA ACTS?

Beaky · #23 05-13-2013, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Walleris

Let me paraphrase, so you could actually see what I'm asking.

WHAT BANDS/ARTIST OF BON JOVI's AGE (OR OLDER) DO YOU SEE AS NOT NOSTALGIA ACTS?

YOU KNOW THE ANSWER... JUST LIKE YOU KNOW THAT BY ASKING IT THE WAY YOU DID SETS IT UP SO SOMEONE WILL SAY 'NO ONE' AND YOU CAN SLEEP AT NIGHT KNOWING YOUR BAND ARE STILL THE BESTEST EVER AND JON LOVES YOU AND YOU'RE NOT UNCOOL.

One more time...

Judging their relevance against their peers does NOT judge their relevance at all. It judges their longevity. Totally different. Then you get into 'how have they had such longevity?' Prayer, IML etc... but that is fading, even with their loyal fanbase because it's being diluted with more recent releases.

Look, just read the posts or don't. It's all been explained. If you can't find the answer your looking for, it's not my fault.

NO band of their age is relevant unless some DJ or some hip artist somewhere suddenly sees fit to mention them as an influence and make them relevant again. But this won't happen while albums like WAN are being released.

crashed · #24 05-13-2013, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beaky

That is it. Of course it is. Timberlake will be Buble one day, then he'll be Tony Bennett... if he's lucky. Bon Jovi are The Stones but Jon is seriously f*cking that up with release like the last album. He needs to just accept it.

Hence my 'hot mum' reference. You can be 'good for your age', you can have guys who can power lift in the 70s but put them against a kid and it's not right... but Jon keeps trying to lift those weights...

There are degrees of this though.

If WAN was a lasting piece of work, a great album, then existing fans would have added to their collection in their droves. They haven't.

If WAN had been a great album, then existing fans would be saying 'I cannot wait to hear 'Beautiful World' live,' they're not. Some will but it's now a minority.

If WAN had been a great album then as much as Bon Jovi would have been a 'legacy' act, they would have had an album that stood alongside their nostalgic albums, their stand-the-test-of-time back catalogue as a proud new edition and huge numbers of people would have wanted to see them play songs off of it. They would have been relevant to a legion of their own fans.

This band aren't even relevant to most of their long-term fans anymore. 600k sales, worldwide... horrible.

And it's going to get worse with every new album - but you mention the Stones. I don't know what their last relevant album release was that wasn't a live album or a rehashed greatest hits. But their still one of the biggest bands in the world. What About Now is not doing anything to benefit Jovi's career, but it's not really doing anything to dent it either. Every band will have lesser albums in their catalogue too. WAN whether you like it like I do but as a whole not anything special, or think it's total shit, will make no difference to Bon Jovi's career as a whole - it's sort of a non event. The bigger issue is Richie's absence - that's the thing that will effect what Bon Jovi's legacy is.

Beaky · #25 05-13-2013, 06:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crashed

And it's going to get worse with every new album - but you mention the Stones. I don't know what their last relevant album release was that wasn't a live album or a rehashed greatest hits. But their still one of the biggest bands in the world. What About Now is not doing anything to benefit Jovi's career, but it's not really doing anything to dent it either. Every band will have lesser albums in their catalogue too. WAN whether you like it like I do but as a whole not anything special, or think it's total shit, will make no difference to Bon Jovi's career as a whole - it's sort of a non event. The bigger issue is Richie's absence - that's the thing that will effect what Bon Jovi's legacy is.

I don't agree and I'm not just being awkward, honest.

The new music unravels their legacy in two ways...

1) As I've mentioned before, I literally know no one who has bought this album. From a whole group of fans who used to follow this band AND their music; now, we are a handful. None of us admit to liking this band anymore. I used to defend them, we all did, now we can't. Keep in mind, many of the people I am talking about didn't get onboard until IML and now they can't admit to liking Bon Jovi when someone mentioned how sh*t BWC is. They aren't just alienating fans of 25 years, they are losing millions of loyal, record-buying fans with every bad release; because they are stuck between two stools.

2) I can't see an up and coming 'cool' band will introduce a new audience to this band by wearing a Bon Jovi t-shirt or crediting them as an influence right now. This isn't because Prayer is old... it's because the new stuff is so poor.

As for The Stones; their last good release was their last single... Doom and Gloom sounded like The Stones and they are cool enough that they got Noomi Rapace in the video (Yes, I know she was paid) and their last good album was Bridges to Babylon... the last one they released. It sold around 3 million I think. That's my opinion, obviously but one thing it certainly didn't do was embarrass them or affect their legacy. My mistake... a Bigger Bang was their last, still a good album but not a corker.

The Stones are savvy. They've accepted their place in music history and in the current musical environment.

One thing you can be sure of, there probably isn't a single musician in the charts, out of the charts, in vogue or not who wouldn't want to play live with them on their current tour. I see Stones t-shirts almost every day. I have about 6 myself.

crashed · #26 05-13-2013, 06:31 PM

We'll just have to see it differently then. I'm used to that

Beaky · #27 05-13-2013, 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by crashed

We'll just have to see it differently then. I'm used to that

Yeah but I am not really sure this is so much 'opinion' based or just 'head in the sand.'

You honestly don't think they are harming their legacy by releasing albums like WAN?

You don't think their reputation in the last ten years hasn't deteriorated with every release?

Here's a hypothetical for you... say they released Crush... and maybe LH or HAND in the last 13 years... along with the GH. Set lists would be based around more 'classics and rarities' with a few newer tunes thrown in.

Don't you think this scenario would provide them with more of a chance of a little more acclaim amongst their own fans and music fans in general whilst still managing to be a huge, global touring machine?

Everyone on here is saying 'why did they release this album? Why didn't Jon take his time, it's a disaster... ' etc... the board is loaded with it. Not because Richie isn't on the tour but because they know that they are going to have to suspend their hopes for something decent for another five years... it's right here for all to see... it's right there in the album sales. Jon is taking a giant dump on the Bon Jovi name and it makes me very, very sad.

MrNickel · #28 05-13-2013, 06:49 PM

Since "Have A Nice Day" they've really went out of the limelight in terms of being a bankable charting band. Back then, they were on the radio and although it wasn't a Crush like fever it did feel like they were relevant.

Lost Highway done well album wise, Memory made some ripples but the whole move to country style direction was a deal breaker for pop/rock radio I think. "The Circle" and "WAN" have came and went like the new Arnie movie.

I compare them to Journey and I don't see many differences in terms of touring and radio play. Journey of course have had some major band members swaps but they've released new albums steadily like Jovi and tour non stop. Journey's main claim these days will always be "Don't Stop Believing", but seeing them live 2 years ago they played 4/5 new songs from their latest album as well as all the hits. So the argument that Bon Jovi releases new albums, "which means they gotta be still relevant" doesn't really stick, cause like Journey these albums aren't making waves on the radio.

I think these days Jon is trying to package the tour so that it doesn't look like a Nostalgia shin dig. He has the Augmented Reality thing, the funky 4 music vids and the popified new single. It just doesn't change a thing, people want the old stuff.

crashed · #29 05-13-2013, 06:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beaky

Yeah but I am not really sure this is so much 'opinion' based or just 'head in the sand.'

You honestly don't think they are harming their legacy by releasing albums like WAN?

You don't think their reputation in the last ten years hasn't deteriorated with every release?

Here's a hypothetical for you... say they released Crush... and maybe LH or HAND in the last 13 years... along with the GH. Set lists would be based around more 'classics and rarities' with a few newer tunes thrown in.

Don't you think this scenario would provide them with more of a chance of a little more acclaim amongst their own fans and music fans in general whilst still managing to be a huge, global touring machine?

Everyone on here is saying 'why did they release this album? Why didn't Jon take his time, it's a disaster... ' etc... the board is loaded with it. Not because Richie isn't on the tour but because they know that they are going to have to suspend their hopes for something decent for another five years... it's right here for all to see... it's right there in the album sales. Jon is taking a giant dump on the Bon Jovi name and it makes me very, very sad.

I just don't see this as such a mediocre, terrible album. That's where our views differ. And I'd have hated not to have The Circle in the catalogue. I love that album.

I do agree they've released too many on too short a time frame, toured too much - that's where the album sales and ticket sales are suffering.

DevilsSon · #30 05-13-2013, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beaky

Yeah but I am not really sure this is so much 'opinion' based or just 'head in the sand.'

You honestly don't think they are harming their legacy by releasing albums like WAN?

These two statements are spot on. WAN is SO BAD that it makes me happy to not see Richie play with the band any longer. Whichever way you put it, I think this says a lot. And even if it's just me they lose as a fan, I used to drag my friends to the concerts, hype the band, talk about the awesome songs....to the point that my friends did the same. Gone now. Just losing me as a fan will lose them about 10-15 ticket sales per tour. And there's at least 20 -30 people on this forum alone who feel the same, and probably have an even bigger impact. If that is not affecting their reputation, legacy, and even their current ticket sales then I don't know. But yeah, for some people it's enough to 'agree to disagree' when it's as obvious as England having zero chance of winning the world cup. Fair enough, some people disagree with that statement too.

Is Bon Jovi already a "nostalgia act" ?

General BJ Discussion