[RichieW2001]

Richie's one-off songs for soundtracks and compilation CDs are always more pop-orientated than his album tracks, there's nothing new there. Long Way Around, Take Me On and One Last Goodbye are all very 'pop', so it shouldn't really come as a shock that this is, particularly not when it's on a Randy Jackson album alongside Paula Abdul and co.

[Crushgen24/88]

Originally Posted by aph01

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mk8c1Ibvel4

IBTFY at the Prudential Center on 11/9/07. Richie on lead electric guitar, sound so much better with the guitar fills that Bobby seems incapable of playing!! Nice vocal by Jon, he ssms to be really going for it here.

Love that performance.

[Butters]

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I've been saying that for so long but a lot of people, not naming names just things I've noticed, think Richie is the bands saving grace as far as rock music goes. He's just as pop minded as Jon. Not that it's a bad thing, I love the music they both make, it's just been blown way out of porportion that since Richie can play a guitar solo, he therefore needs the band to rock to be happy.

Well I've always thought it and I've probably cherred along to what you've written and never posted my agreement before. I would disagree that Jon is as pop minded as Richie. I don't think that's the case at all.

I think with Richie, as you said, his writing always seems forced. He seems like he's trying to attract "the kids" (as he's fond of saying) and trying to be pop and it's all very obvious and forced and insincere (I'm sure that's spelled wrong). With Jon I don't think that can be said. If there is a pop sound to be found in Jon's work it's of a completely different type and if it's there it's always haunted by a true rock sound. I think when people accuse Jon of being pop, what would be more accurate to say would be that Jon is trying to be contempory. He always infuses his/the bands trademark rock sound with a current feeling or vibe and I wouldn't call that pop in the same way as I would call Richie's stuff pop.

Compare Destination Anywhere to Stranger In This Town. I adore Stranger but DA is a much stronger rock album then Stranger. Certainly Stranger is rock and it almost certainly has more guitars and louder guitars but the feeling and vibe of DA is just pure rock, much moreso then Stranger, and I use DA as a comparison precisely because it doesn't have big, loud guitars and screaming vocals but yet there is an undescrible yet indelible rock feeling to it and that comes from Jon, and I just don't think it's there anywhere near as much in Richie even when he's totally in touch with his rock side.

[Crushgen24/88]

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. I've been saying that for so long but a lot of people, not naming names just things I've noticed, think Richie is the bands saving grace as far as rock music goes. He's just as pop minded as Jon. Not that it's a bad thing, I love the music they both make, it's just been blown way out of porportion that since Richie can play a guitar solo, he therefore needs the band to rock to be happy.

I think they're both pop minded, and I don't think that's a bad thing.
As for food for thought on this, go look at some of the songs Jon's written solo:
Something To Believe In, Miss Fourth of July, Novacaine, I Believe
Some of the band's most "mature" and lyrically complex stuff.

[RichieW2001]

Originally Posted by Butters

Well I've always thought it and I've probably cherred along to what you've written and never posted my agreement before. I would disagree that Jon is as pop minded as Richie. I don't think that's the case at all.

I think with Richie, as you said, his writing always seems forced. He seems like he's trying to attract "the kids" (as he's fond of saying) and trying to be pop and it's all very obvious and forced and insincere (I'm sure that's spelled wrong). With Jon I don't think that can be said. If there is a pop sound to be found in Jon's work it's of a completely different type and if it's there it's always haunted by a true rock sound. I think when people accuse Jon of being pop, what would be more accurate to say would be that Jon is trying to be contempory. He always infuses his/the bands trademark rock sound with a current feeling or vibe and I wouldn't call that pop in the same way as I would call Richie's stuff pop.

Compare Destination Anywhere to Stranger In This Town. I adore Stranger but DA is a much stronger rock album then Stranger. Certainly Stranger is rock and it almost certainly has more guitars and louder guitars but the feeling and vibe of DA is just pure rock, much moreso then Stranger, and I use DA as a comparison precisely because it doesn't have big, loud guitars and screaming vocals but yet there is an undescrible yet indelible rock feeling to it and that comes from Jon, and I just don't think it's there anywhere near as much in Richie even when he's totally in touch with his rock side.

You can't compare Stranger to DA at all. They were made 7 years apart, for a kick off, and 7 years in which music changed beyond all recognition.

Maybe I'm missing the point but are you trying to say that Stranger is more of a pop record than DA? That would just be silly.

[DevilsSon]

Butters, I absolutely agree with you. The stuff you wrote there shows deep understanding and great analytical skills. The part I liked most is your avatar. It perfectly summarizes your post.

As to everyone else, there is a huge difference between Richie singing and Richie playing. His bluesy voice doesn't fit heavy rock, as opposed to Jon's raspy voice which used to be perfect for it. Richie doesn't have a single hard rock song on any of his solo albums. The only marginal exceptions being Who I Am and Rosie, the latter actually being a Bon Jovi song.
Compare this to his playing which, even if soulful, is still fast and aggressive. Listen to the solos he was improvising live during the 80s, to Mr. Sambo, even Ava's eyes. If something is missing in today's Bon Jovi music it's exactly this element. The man simply understands where he can be at the top of his game. And bluesy soulful songs are exactly where he is best when singing. Now add some more guitar to that song on youtube and it'd be an awesome song. The fact that it's a cd for American Idol probably prevents it from that. When Richie played with Bo' Dice the sound was fabulous. Even when he played with Uhser, it reminded me of Slash playing with Jacko. With his guitar playing, Sambora can transform an average pop song into a decent rock song, something that Jon Bon Jovi is not able to do on his own.

Once again, all the points which were addressed saying that Richie can make Bon Jovi sound more rock are made from the perspective of Richie - the guitar player, not the songwriter, not the singer. If you keep this in mind, all the arguments which you guys brought across are simply irrelevant.

[(Don't)Lie_to_me]

Why does everyone have to stimulate anomosity every time someone else's opinion differs from their own?

[Grypweed]

I really gotta disagree with anyone who's saying his lyrics seem forced or insincere or whatever.

If you read those lyrics on their own, without listening to the song, you can totally feel his pain. When I read them for the first time, before I'd even heard Bo Bice's version, I teared up. You don't get that from songs that are 'contrived'.

You put it through the American Idol machine and of course it's gonna be turned into a pop song.

Richie has written some ditty's, yes, but without him we wouldn't have half as many of those songs that we all love - WDOA, TD, IBTFY, IDFY, HG... and what's the reason that DC blows (the majority of) us away? The solo.

And true, Jon has written probably the bands best songs without the help of anybody, but we also have to thank him for songs like 'Complicated' and 'I Got The Girl' - songs which Richie had no hand in writing, and they're among the worst in the band's catalogue.

IMO, they're still the best when it's just the two of them, without all that outsidefrigginhelp.

My point is, they're both pop minded. They're both awesome songwriters. They're both really bad songwriters. Get it?

[RSROCKS]

Originally Posted by absol.lution

And true, Jon has written probably the bands best songs without the help of anybody.

I agree with you on everything except this one simple statement. This all opinion based. Most of my favorite songs are collaborations between Jon and Richie (or even a third peron like Desmond). In fact, most of the "fan favorites" are cowritten between the twp of them, not just my personal favorites. To say that Jon has written the best Bon Jovi songs discredits quite a few people especially Richie.

I will however admit that songs he wrote on his own are great like BOR, Always, Dry County, Blaze of Glory etc. but as you pointed out, he has also written utter shit like I Got the Girl and Complicated.

Also, Richie has never written anything by himself for the band, so we don't know and will never know what he could have produced for the band as we all have pointed out that Richie writes differently for himself and others than he does with Jon for the band.

[Crushgen24/88]

With my post, I wasn't implying that the songs Jon has written solo were better than the ones with Richie, as I don't think that for the most part.
All I meant was that a majority of Jon's solo stuff is less poppish then the colab. stuff.