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  #2201  
Old 05-04-2021, 04:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Alphavictim View Post
Slippery part 2 exists, it's called New Jersey. Of course, the sound is way too rooted in the 80s to be an option for BJ the band nowadays. But the general sentiment - having something to prove, making a concise energetic upbeat record, taking extra steps (demoing a lot more, getting new personell in to help)... this would still be an option. Especially the part about demoing more, working on stuff more.
Kinda, but I always felt that Jersey was a much harder record than Slippery.
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  #2202  
Old 05-04-2021, 04:28 PM
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Kinda, but I always felt that Jersey was a much harder record than Slippery.
New Jersey is a different type of monster. You could say Born to be my baby and maybe Stick to your guns were written in a Slippery mood/mode, but the record is very different in my opinion.
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  #2203  
Old 05-04-2021, 04:29 PM
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I think there's a lot to be said about the process and what we do and don't know. The amount of songs we got for THINFS tells me they went through a much more extensive pre-production/demo'ing process and it didn't really lead to a more cohesive, well rounded album. I'm not sure how to "fix" the problem but both camps are putting out music they think the most amount of people will like when I'd rather they go introspective, admit it won't sell and just do what they like. And if they are just doing it for the sake of doing it, that's not enough, if that makes sense?
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  #2204  
Old 05-04-2021, 04:48 PM
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Whelp we've hit the stage where All That Glitters is my favourite of the 4.
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  #2205  
Old 05-04-2021, 08:01 PM
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That's an interesting discussion about making Stranger II or Slippery II. That discussion is nothing new, we're having it for at least 20 years - I'd even go that far to say it's there right after Slippery went through the roof.
Before the release of 2020 we discussed the same while guessing which direction the band will take with the new record and if there's still one hit left in Jon.
Especially with the discussion whether Jon has one more hit in his pen - and I think one can very well transfer it to writing a great album again - I was thinking if it's even possible for a band that's been that long around like Bon Jovi are, to have another song or another record that satifies the fans' desire for another Slippery (or in Richie's case another Stranger).
To start with my personal answer right away: I don't think so! It's impossible.
If you look at those bands that are as long around as Bon Jovi are (or even longer)...The Rolling Stones, U2, Bruce, ACDC...all of their hits, all of their hit records are the old ones. When you go to a Stones show I never heard anyone saying "A Bigger Bang was such a masterpiece, I hope they're playing Sweet Neo Con" or going to Bruce saying "Gee, Wrecking Ball is awesome, I hope he's doing the full album." That doesn't happen. The old bands are having hit records because they have the fanbase, they have a fanbase hoping for a new classic, they have the reputation so casuals buy their records and they have the quality which makes their albums good enough to give them a listen and that are not bad enough to be that disappointed to never return again (at least for the most part of the listeners).
I think everyone hopes that their favourite band accomplishes to rewrite that one big record again. But due to that hope it isn't even possible for the band to do so. We want another Slippery or another New Jersey or another Keep The Faith or another These Days. But the album isn't allowed to be a copy of those records, the songs aren't allowed to sound the same as those old songs, the lyrics aren't allowed to be the same as on those records. So I'm wondering: How has a new 2021-Slippery, a 2021-Born To Run, a 2021-Sticky Fingers or a 2021-Back in Black have to sound to make it through the fans' quality management? I don't know. With Keep The Faith and These Days the band lost a lot of die-hards that loved Slippery and New Jersey. The fans that were gained with Crush love both periods. People come, people go.
How can one of those old bands have another hit which is on the same level as Prayer, as Satisfaction, as Highway To Hell or as Dancing In The Dark?
With Blood In The Water we got a song that was highly praised. But soon after came the first comments saying "it's the similiar melody to Dry County which makes it so likeable, despite that it's the same mediocre song like the last 20 years."
So I think it isn't a coincidence that all the big hit singles of those old bands are from a long time ago. Of course every once in a while one of those new singles made it to the top. The Stones most recently made it with Ghost Town. But I think we all agree that this song never will be considered playing in the same league as Satisfaction, Jumpin' Jack Flash or Brown Sugar do.

So I think it's the natural run of time. You hit it big, you have those big records. If you're lucky you even have those big hits and big records for a certain period of time. But the longer you stay, the harder it gets to repeat those records which made you that big. Failing is inevitable because you can't repeat such special things. It's like having the first date with the love of your life in your favourite amusement park. It's the most beautiful day in your life. And everytime you come back with her to that park you want to make it that special again. But it never will be the same feeling again. Because times change, situation change, people change, moments change, memories change. It is what it is.
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  #2206  
Old 05-04-2021, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceman View Post
That's an interesting discussion about making Stranger II or Slippery II. That discussion is nothing new, we're having it for at least 20 years - I'd even go that far to say it's there right after Slippery went through the roof.
Before the release of 2020 we discussed the same while guessing which direction the band will take with the new record and if there's still one hit left in Jon.
Especially with the discussion whether Jon has one more hit in his pen - and I think one can very well transfer it to writing a great album again - I was thinking if it's even possible for a band that's been that long around like Bon Jovi are, to have another song or another record that satifies the fans' desire for another Slippery (or in Richie's case another Stranger).
To start with my personal answer right away: I don't think so! It's impossible.
If you look at those bands that are as long around as Bon Jovi are (or even longer)...The Rolling Stones, U2, Bruce, ACDC...all of their hits, all of their hit records are the old ones. When you go to a Stones show I never heard anyone saying "A Bigger Bang was such a masterpiece, I hope they're playing Sweet Neo Con" or going to Bruce saying "Gee, Wrecking Ball is awesome, I hope he's doing the full album." That doesn't happen. The old bands are having hit records because they have the fanbase, they have a fanbase hoping for a new classic, they have the reputation so casuals buy their records and they have the quality which makes their albums good enough to give them a listen and that are not bad enough to be that disappointed to never return again (at least for the most part of the listeners).
I think everyone hopes that their favourite band accomplishes to rewrite that one big record again. But due to that hope it isn't even possible for the band to do so. We want another Slippery or another New Jersey or another Keep The Faith or another These Days. But the album isn't allowed to be a copy of those records, the songs aren't allowed to sound the same as those old songs, the lyrics aren't allowed to be the same as on those records. So I'm wondering: How has a new 2021-Slippery, a 2021-Born To Run, a 2021-Sticky Fingers or a 2021-Back in Black have to sound to make it through the fans' quality management? I don't know. With Keep The Faith and These Days the band lost a lot of die-hards that loved Slippery and New Jersey. The fans that were gained with Crush love both periods. People come, people go.
How can one of those old bands have another hit which is on the same level as Prayer, as Satisfaction, as Highway To Hell or as Dancing In The Dark?
With Blood In The Water we got a song that was highly praised. But soon after came the first comments saying "it's the similiar melody to Dry County which makes it so likeable, despite that it's the same mediocre song like the last 20 years."
So I think it isn't a coincidence that all the big hit singles of those old bands are from a long time ago. Of course every once in a while one of those new singles made it to the top. The Stones most recently made it with Ghost Town. But I think we all agree that this song never will be considered playing in the same league as Satisfaction, Jumpin' Jack Flash or Brown Sugar do.

So I think it's the natural run of time. You hit it big, you have those big records. If you're lucky you even have those big hits and big records for a certain period of time. But the longer you stay, the harder it gets to repeat those records which made you that big. Failing is inevitable because you can't repeat such special things. It's like having the first date with the love of your life in your favourite amusement park. It's the most beautiful day in your life. And everytime you come back with her to that park you want to make it that special again. But it never will be the same feeling again. Because times change, situation change, people change, moments change, memories change. It is what it is.
Holy hell, this is brilliantly put.

They're in such a lose/lose position and for as many people want the introspective, soulful lyrics of These Days, there's another group that want that devil-may-care rocking attitude of the 80's. How can a band fill both those groups while being true to themselves but not being a parody of themselves. I think you have it bang on.
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  #2207  
Old 05-04-2021, 08:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain_jovi View Post
Holy hell, this is brilliantly put.

They're in such a lose/lose position and for as many people want the introspective, soulful lyrics of These Days, there's another group that want that devil-may-care rocking attitude of the 80's. How can a band fill both those groups while being true to themselves but not being a parody of themselves. I think you have it bang on.
Agreed, great post Faceman
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  #2208  
Old 05-04-2021, 08:58 PM
Alphavictim Alphavictim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Faceman View Post
That's an interesting discussion about making Stranger II or Slippery II. That discussion is nothing new, we're having it for at least 20 years - I'd even go that far to say it's there right after Slippery went through the roof.
Before the release of 2020 we discussed the same while guessing which direction the band will take with the new record and if there's still one hit left in Jon.
Especially with the discussion whether Jon has one more hit in his pen - and I think one can very well transfer it to writing a great album again - I was thinking if it's even possible for a band that's been that long around like Bon Jovi are, to have another song or another record that satifies the fans' desire for another Slippery (or in Richie's case another Stranger).
To start with my personal answer right away: I don't think so! It's impossible.
If you look at those bands that are as long around as Bon Jovi are (or even longer)...The Rolling Stones, U2, Bruce, ACDC...all of their hits, all of their hit records are the old ones. When you go to a Stones show I never heard anyone saying "A Bigger Bang was such a masterpiece, I hope they're playing Sweet Neo Con" or going to Bruce saying "Gee, Wrecking Ball is awesome, I hope he's doing the full album." That doesn't happen. The old bands are having hit records because they have the fanbase, they have a fanbase hoping for a new classic, they have the reputation so casuals buy their records and they have the quality which makes their albums good enough to give them a listen and that are not bad enough to be that disappointed to never return again (at least for the most part of the listeners).
I think everyone hopes that their favourite band accomplishes to rewrite that one big record again. But due to that hope it isn't even possible for the band to do so. We want another Slippery or another New Jersey or another Keep The Faith or another These Days. But the album isn't allowed to be a copy of those records, the songs aren't allowed to sound the same as those old songs, the lyrics aren't allowed to be the same as on those records. So I'm wondering: How has a new 2021-Slippery, a 2021-Born To Run, a 2021-Sticky Fingers or a 2021-Back in Black have to sound to make it through the fans' quality management? I don't know. With Keep The Faith and These Days the band lost a lot of die-hards that loved Slippery and New Jersey. The fans that were gained with Crush love both periods. People come, people go.
How can one of those old bands have another hit which is on the same level as Prayer, as Satisfaction, as Highway To Hell or as Dancing In The Dark?
With Blood In The Water we got a song that was highly praised. But soon after came the first comments saying "it's the similiar melody to Dry County which makes it so likeable, despite that it's the same mediocre song like the last 20 years."
So I think it isn't a coincidence that all the big hit singles of those old bands are from a long time ago. Of course every once in a while one of those new singles made it to the top. The Stones most recently made it with Ghost Town. But I think we all agree that this song never will be considered playing in the same league as Satisfaction, Jumpin' Jack Flash or Brown Sugar do.

So I think it's the natural run of time. You hit it big, you have those big records. If you're lucky you even have those big hits and big records for a certain period of time. But the longer you stay, the harder it gets to repeat those records which made you that big. Failing is inevitable because you can't repeat such special things. It's like having the first date with the love of your life in your favourite amusement park. It's the most beautiful day in your life. And everytime you come back with her to that park you want to make it that special again. But it never will be the same feeling again. Because times change, situation change, people change, moments change, memories change. It is what it is.
Great post.

I think it also boils down to: What does an artist do well, and what do they like to do? Jon had a great voice for the music they did in the 80s, and he enjoyed making party anthems. In the 90s, the focus shifted. He still had a great voice for that kind of music; arguably, the shift to deeper vocals in the 90s was actually a sound decision considering both the musical climate as well as his vocal development.

But you can't always strike gold, with the things you can do well, the things you want to do and the things that resonate with the cultural landscape being in perfect alignment.

Plus, in case of Bon Jovi: The changing tastes of the band members! I would argue that Jon and Richie were on the very same page musically in the 80s, or at least complemented each other brilliantly. They changed - not neccessarily in the same direction. The music they made became more of a compromise as a result. The strengths of everybody were not at the forefront as much anymore.

Bon Jovi in 2021 would need to take into account the limits of Jon's vocal, the expectations of the fans, the things the general public (who has not been a fan for 15+ years) would appreciate, the things the band can write, the things the band WANTS to perform... account for all that. It is not even just about whether the FANS want a Slippery or a These Days. They alone wouldn't make either a hit. But the band would also need to be able to deliver, and it would need to resonate as well. Slippery was not just a good record in a vacuum, it was a hit record. That changes the nature of the album.
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  #2209  
Old 05-04-2021, 10:14 PM
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Do you know what he is saying in these 2 new snippets ?
His pronunciation is not clear for me.
Thanks
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  #2210  
Old 05-04-2021, 10:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alphavictim View Post
Great post.

I think it also boils down to: What does an artist do well, and what do they like to do? Jon had a great voice for the music they did in the 80s, and he enjoyed making party anthems. In the 90s, the focus shifted. He still had a great voice for that kind of music; arguably, the shift to deeper vocals in the 90s was actually a sound decision considering both the musical climate as well as his vocal development.

But you can't always strike gold, with the things you can do well, the things you want to do and the things that resonate with the cultural landscape being in perfect alignment.

Plus, in case of Bon Jovi: The changing tastes of the band members! I would argue that Jon and Richie were on the very same page musically in the 80s, or at least complemented each other brilliantly. They changed - not neccessarily in the same direction. The music they made became more of a compromise as a result. The strengths of everybody were not at the forefront as much anymore.

Bon Jovi in 2021 would need to take into account the limits of Jon's vocal, the expectations of the fans, the things the general public (who has not been a fan for 15+ years) would appreciate, the things the band can write, the things the band WANTS to perform... account for all that. It is not even just about whether the FANS want a Slippery or a These Days. They alone wouldn't make either a hit. But the band would also need to be able to deliver, and it would need to resonate as well. Slippery was not just a good record in a vacuum, it was a hit record. That changes the nature of the album.
Well said. It's very nuanced and important to remember that our side of the sandbox liking doesn't mean it'll be a popular hit. If anything it stands to reason the opposite. If they recreate an old sound they're pandering, if they go in a new direction they're trend chasing.

All they can really do is keep going out and playing the hits. I commend them for at least playing the new songs live but let's see if they can pull it off without the "This was a number one album everyone loved" dog and pony show.
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