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  #11  
Old 02-15-2014, 07:15 PM
Fredrik Fredrik is offline
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Originally Posted by Rumen View Post
My Guitar Lies Bleeding In My Arms - LP vs. CD (1995) and LP vs. CD (1998 Remaster)

Wow, that is a big difference!
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  #12  
Old 02-16-2014, 01:38 PM
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It isn't physically possible for the sound quality of a vinyl to be better than a CD. The thing is, most people who love vinyl have much better sound systems they listen to vinyl through and they think the difference is in the medium. Any medium can be ruined by mastering everything flat, but a well mastered CD sounds a lot better than vinyl. It's just a physical fact, a needle scraping plastic cannot be better than digitally exact copy.

Ice
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  #13  
Old 02-17-2014, 01:14 AM
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Originally Posted by JackieBlue View Post
Rumen, what am I looking at here? The images look very similar to me except for color. Am I missing something? Or is that your point, maybe? That there isn't a lot of difference?
The arctic blue color from picture1 is the wavefrom of the LP version (528 248-1 1995) and in dark blue you can see the CD version that came out in 1995 (528-248-2). Picture 2: In green is the LP version and in grey the remastered CD version (538-036-2_EU 199

Subjectively, the LP does sound slightly more dynamic than the CD. Somebody (myself included) could say that the vinyl version of These Days provides a warmth and richer sound that the digital These Days formats don't. But that subjective judgment shouldn't be equated with better audio quality. I agree with Ice that a well mastered CD will sound better than any vinyl. In my opinion the LP simply couldn't compete technically with the CD.

Anyway, as I already told you "the warmth thing" is a subjective matter, but as we can see comparing just the waveforms of those 3 files (LP, 528 248-1 (1995) - CD, 528-248-2(1995) - CD, 538-036-2_EU(1998 REmaster) ), it's pretty clear that the LP version has higher relative dynamics. I can also extract a version of My guitar from the double CD version 532 644-2 (1996), but in my opinion it's pointless, because I think the waveform will be almost exact copy of 528-248-2 (1995).

Also we can see that the CD waveforms are noticeably compressed and the average volume level is boosted almost as high as possible. When I took a look at the spectral view, on the CD there was no spectral information above 20kHz . In comparison, on the LP spectral view there appears to be some frequency content up to around 25kHz. Of course a possible reason for that could be that the LP version has higher harmonic distortion which makes higher frequency.

So, in conclusion, I would say that in my opinion the sound of the digital recordings is slightly clearer. Also we know that the LPs deteriorate with every play and as like Ice said any medium can be ruined by mastering everything loud and flat. Once the dynamic range is gone, it generally can't be added back. At least to my ears the LP version of These Days sounds a little warmer compared to the CDs and the sound gives me the feeling that I'm listening to a well balanced live performance.
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  #14  
Old 02-17-2014, 12:35 PM
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loudness_war

For some reason people want stuff that's compressed flat. It's not hard to leave dynamics in, but for some reason there seems to be a competition on who's getting the loudest CD out. Don't these people have volume knobs on their hi-fi-systems?

Ice
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  #15  
Old 02-17-2014, 03:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
It isn't physically possible for the sound quality of a vinyl to be better than a CD. The thing is, most people who love vinyl have much better sound systems they listen to vinyl through and they think the difference is in the medium. Any medium can be ruined by mastering everything flat, but a well mastered CD sounds a lot better than vinyl. It's just a physical fact, a needle scraping plastic cannot be better than digitally exact copy.

Ice
I get your point, but talking pure acoustics here, it is a matter of a fact that vinyl IS better than a CD when you're talking sound quality. CD's came around with the intent of compression because its a massive space saver. Thats a given. mp3's later with even more compression etc. But for the purists i can totally understand why vinyl is the preferred choice. Vinyl has twice the frequency range of a CD so obviously there is a lot more scope in the mix. Its just a pure cost saving and space saving measure for the record companies to mass churn albums out to the people for no cost at all. Look at the evolution - VINYL, CASSETTE, MINI DISK, MP3.

Look at the movie world - BETAMAX, VHS, DVD and now streaming online is the way people are turning to.

I dont necessarily agree with the evolution - as the record companies have sold their souls to the devil. But from a pure business and money making point of view it is pure economics. But a matter of pure sound quality, sorry Iceman. Vinyl is FAR superior sound quality to any other medium out there. No compression means nothing is lost.
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  #16  
Old 02-18-2014, 11:14 PM
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Urgh, I hate it when people get facts wrong... Sound compression has nothing to do with the space on the CD. You're confusing sound compression with file compression, two totally different things. And again MP3 has NOTHING to do with dynamics on sound compression. I suggest you learn about what you're talking about before trying to teach anyone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_compression

And read about the loudness wars, the link i posted previously.

And no, vinyl doesn't have more frequency range than a CD, it has less. And again, compression in the mixing or mastering stage has an effect on whatever medium you master to. It's a decision of the guy doing the mastering and the artist to decide how much dynamics they leave in and how much they want to compress the soundwave. On vinyl you have much less dynamics to play with, so you do it differently. On CD you can make everything punchy, so many opt that. So, in short, you're wrong on all accounts.

Listen to this interview from about 55:20 onwards. It's a guy who's done mastering for albums since the 70's (including Metallica's Black Album) and is teaching mastering in NYU and Juillard. Listen to what he says about vinyl.

http://youtu.be/6mx-nouwouk

Ice
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  #17  
Old 02-18-2014, 11:25 PM
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More on the subject: http://www.npr.org/2012/02/10/146697...than-cd-or-not

Quote:
METCALFE: Dynamic range we can think of initially as a musical term, meaning the range from the loudest notes being played to the softest notes being played. And when we talk about dynamic range in a recording medium, we're talking about the range between the noise floor - sort the bottom point where the noise becomes a distraction - to the top point, where it starts to introduce harmonic distortion, where the, technically, the waves that are being captured start to change in their form, and they're no longer precisely what we're feeding into it.

DANKOSKY: How about dynamic compression?

METCALFE: Well, dynamic compression is a tool that we may apply to reduce the overall dynamic range. That can be done in a creative sense, where we can apply, say, dynamic compression to a vocal track that needs to sit over a jazz trio, for example. So if the singer gets too loud, it doesn't jump out of the track, and if gets too quiet, it doesn't get buried behind the other instruments.

The term can sometimes be applied to vinyl in that the physical limitations of what the medium is able to store and reproduce is such that it can be advantageous, particularly in the lower frequencies, to reduce the dynamic range - meaning the low notes that are being captured - to reduce the dynamic range to do a couple of things.

One, it's going to prevent the needle from jumping right out of the groove if it gets too extreme. The other is that if we reduce the overall dynamic range going to the disc itself, we can actually fit more material, more length, onto each side of the disc.

With CDs, there isn't that trade-off. We have a, you know, easily, 80, 90 dB or more of dynamic range to work from, and we don't have to worry about any - although, unfortunately, it's very popular to put dynamic compression on a lot of modern music, but it's not a - it's not necessary. Technically, it's more an aesthetic choice or trying to be louder than the other band on the street.
And: http://wiki.hydrogenaudio.org/index....e=Myths_(Vinyl)

And: http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?se...doc_id=1283408

And: http://www.eetimes.com/author.asp?se...doc_id=1283449

Subjectively you can think whatever you want, like whatever you think is best, but it doesn't make it a fact.

Ice
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  #18  
Old 02-19-2014, 12:12 AM
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Coming in late to this discussion but I have to back up Ice here. Sound compression is vertical compression of the wav file. File compression is horizontal compression of the wav file. They accomplish 2 completely different things.

There is no way that a vinyl record will have more amplitude than a CD. Originally when CDs first came out it was their dynamic range (the vertical axis or the amplitude) that so impressed people. These days the pop people especially, compress everything vertically (called hard limiting) so that the music sounds louder. There is practically no dynamic range left - the difference between the loudest parts of a track and the softest parts. I hate it

Unless These Days for vinyl was mastered completely differently than These Days for CD, the CD should actually sound a bit better. They should both be listened to on the same equipment at the same sound level to make a decent comparison.
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  #19  
Old 02-19-2014, 06:03 AM
JackieBlue JackieBlue is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumen View Post
The arctic blue color from picture1 is the wavefrom of the LP version (528 248-1 1995) and in dark blue you can see the CD version that came out in 1995 (528-248-2). Picture 2: In green is the LP version and in grey the remastered CD version (538-036-2_EU 199

Subjectively, the LP does sound slightly more dynamic than the CD. Somebody (myself included) could say that the vinyl version of These Days provides a warmth and richer sound that the digital These Days formats don't. But that subjective judgment shouldn't be equated with better audio quality. I agree with Ice that a well mastered CD will sound better than any vinyl. In my opinion the LP simply couldn't compete technically with the CD.

Anyway, as I already told you "the warmth thing" is a subjective matter, but as we can see comparing just the waveforms of those 3 files (LP, 528 248-1 (1995) - CD, 528-248-2(1995) - CD, 538-036-2_EU(1998 REmaster) ), it's pretty clear that the LP version has higher relative dynamics. I can also extract a version of My guitar from the double CD version 532 644-2 (1996), but in my opinion it's pointless, because I think the waveform will be almost exact copy of 528-248-2 (1995).

Also we can see that the CD waveforms are noticeably compressed and the average volume level is boosted almost as high as possible. When I took a look at the spectral view, on the CD there was no spectral information above 20kHz . In comparison, on the LP spectral view there appears to be some frequency content up to around 25kHz. Of course a possible reason for that could be that the LP version has higher harmonic distortion which makes higher frequency.

So, in conclusion, I would say that in my opinion the sound of the digital recordings is slightly clearer. Also we know that the LPs deteriorate with every play and as like Ice said any medium can be ruined by mastering everything loud and flat. Once the dynamic range is gone, it generally can't be added back. At least to my ears the LP version of These Days sounds a little warmer compared to the CDs and the sound gives me the feeling that I'm listening to a well balanced live performance.
Wow! Thanks for taking the time to explain all that! You guys blow my mind with how much you know about the technical side of recordings. I just know what I like without understanding the "why" behind it all. I still can't say I grasp all of it, but at least I can see where the comparisons are! (It helps to know that I'm supposed to be looking at blue vs dark blue and green vs grey. I was trying to compare the blue to the green. Any wonder I was lost? )
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  #20  
Old 02-19-2014, 04:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iceman View Post
Urgh, I hate it when people get facts wrong... Sound compression has nothing to do with the space on the CD. You're confusing sound compression with file compression, two totally different things. And again MP3 has NOTHING to do with dynamics on sound compression. I suggest you learn about what you're talking about before trying to teach anyone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynamic_range_compression
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File_compression

And read about the loudness wars, the link i posted previously.

And no, vinyl doesn't have more frequency range than a CD, it has less. And again, compression in the mixing or mastering stage has an effect on whatever medium you master to. It's a decision of the guy doing the mastering and the artist to decide how much dynamics they leave in and how much they want to compress the soundwave. On vinyl you have much less dynamics to play with, so you do it differently. On CD you can make everything punchy, so many opt that. So, in short, you're wrong on all accounts.

Listen to this interview from about 55:20 onwards. It's a guy who's done mastering for albums since the 70's (including Metallica's Black Album) and is teaching mastering in NYU and Juillard. Listen to what he says about vinyl.

http://youtu.be/6mx-nouwouk

Ice
Because Wikipedia is always right. Makes me laugh when muggy little know-it-alls think they are right because of what Wikipedia says. I've said all i will on this matter. Ice. You are wrong. Stop spurting Shitopedia at me because I'm not interested. And going on about compression. Compression isn't possible on vinyl - but is on wav and mp3s - and thus used extensively.

Now, move on and quit the wikipedia love-in.
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