Quote:
Originally Posted by Walleris
For someone who has been so adamant about how we shouldn't jump to conclusions because we don't know what really happened when it comes to Jon-Richie dynamic, you sure as hell did just that for Jon-David relationship.
In WWWB documentary David did not come across anywhere as miserable as you made him out to be. Remember, that it was David who was Jon's childhood friend and the first member of his bands. I''m sure that has to account to something, especially given his Broadway success, he could easily afford not being in Bon Jovi anymore. Tico is a guy who's never been polarizing and Richie has still showed him love even after he left. And he's 63, so how much additional money does he really need?
I'm sure the paychecks are very good, but to suggest that it's the main reason why they ditched their brother Richie to speak the "company line" against him does not sound believable to me. I still maintain that they would not stand so firmly behind Jon if they felt he treated Richie wrongly. Do we know that for a fact? Off course not, but that's reasonable assumption.
It's OK that you are more warm towards Richie than most of this board (because taking extremes is stupid), but I would expect a lot more reasoning from you, given the generally high quality of your posts here. If there are people on this board whom I would have expected to compare Richie leaving the band to Jon canceling the shows, you would not have been one of them. That's just plain wrong.
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Dammit, I KNEW I should have slept on that before I posted it! That’s
exactly why I try to avoid posting when I’m frustrated.
You, sir, are 99 and 44/100 percent correct in everything you said. But I will take exception to that little bitty 56/100 percent where I think you missed the mark. (Which, along with explaining my obvious misstatements, will probably end up being longer than the original post, knowing me…)
That
is my assumption regarding David’s feelings about working with Jon. I apologize; I’m usually more careful about qualifying my assumptions as such, rather than presenting them as fact, like I did here. I should have said, “Perhaps…” My only defense is that it was way past my bedtime and my phone was being cranky because the battery was low so I was a wee bit pissed off.
David didn’t come across as
miserable to me either, but he did seem
resigned to the way things work in the band. More than one person has commented on how disgruntled he sounded, to the extent that they were surprised (as I am) that Jon didn’t edit it out. His response to a question about resenting Jon’s control was “Sometimes. But not enough to ruin my life over.” Later he said, “It’s good and bad, but not bad enough to walk away from…” (which I find intriguing, given that it was recorded around 2008.) It still doesn’t sound to me like he’s there just out of loyalty to Jon or because he's totally happy.
Your comments about Tico are spot on; but then I didn’t imply that
he ditched Richie or parroted statements Jon has made. Tico is the only one of the three who
hasn’t been negative about Richie, directly or indirectly, since he left. I think Tico would tell somebody to **** off if they tried to tell him what to say in interviews; but I could be wrong. And, tbh, it’s just an educated guess that Jon is telling David what to say; but it sounds to me like he’s “feeding scripted lines to talking heads”. It seems suspicious to me that David started speaking up in interviews just when people here, and other boards, were beginning to complain about Jon’s clichéd responses and asking why he kept bringing up Richie drama.
Case in point:
Quote:
We haven't been in communication with him since the last tour," Bryan says. "It's not a life-sentence band, and he decided to not be in it anymore and we decided to keep going, and we're gonna keep going. Phil [X] really helped us out in a time of need; Richie was battling his demons and Phil was there for us and came out, we didn't know if it was going to be one show or 10 shows, and now it's three years. He's a great player and he's got so much energy. It feels fresh and good.
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Anyone who has seen Jon’s interviews, especially during the initial promotion of THINFS, can easily recognize his go-to statements in that comment from David because they’re nearly verbatim. It’s almost like he’s ticking them off, to make sure he gets them all in. At the same time, Jon abruptly became more neutral in
his comments and rarely said
any of those things. My conclusion? He didn’t need to any longer; he gave that job to David.
I remember my surprise (and disappointment) when I watched Richie do the same thing in an interview years ago in response to a question about what happened with Alec. After years of not commenting on why Alec left, Richie was suddenly willing to talk about it; and
he gave Jon’s pat answer in almost exactly the same way David has done it this time around. I guess Richie was right about that, too, huh? “Everybody rides on the karma train.”
Does that necessarily mean that David (or Richie)
didn’t believe what he said? No. But the timing and the verbiage seem awfully coincidental; and I’m not a big fan of coincidence. Plus, David’s first statement is the same lie that Jon suddenly started telling with the promotional interviews. What are the chances that David would make the same false statement if it weren’t scripted by Jon? So yep, I think David’s been bought. But you’re right, it’s just an assumption.
My comments about why David and Tico haven’t quit were hypothetical, in response to the theory that everybody else in the band must be happy with Jon as the boss; or they would have walked away, too. There again, I should have said “MAYBE they stay because…” There could be any number of reasons why Richie walked and the rest of the band is still there. That was just one possibility. People are individuals with different motives for the things they do. I know I’ve stayed in jobs where I wasn’t happy, because I wasn’t
unhappy enough to take a hike. Maybe David and Tico aren’t at that point and Richie was. But if they aren’t unhappy enough to walk away, then it stands to reason that they may, at times, have to also suck it up and do what the boss says. So IF Jon has said something like, “OK, we’re going to present a united front and this is the story that we’re sticking to…”, which would only be good strategy, it doesn’t leave them a lot of choices, imo. I know of at least one instance where Phil-X and David have changed their stories about having been in contact with Richie, after Jon changed
his, I guess to reinforce the idea that Richie didn’t care enough to try and maintain contact – which, btw, is diametrically opposed to what Richie has said. And every time someone pointed out that someone
had actually been in contact in some way, Jon altered his statement: No one’s heard from him since, no wait… no one’s talked with him, nah… he hasn’t called since, um… he hasn’t been in contact with any of… scratch that… The latest version is “we haven’t seen him
in person since he didn’t show up in Calgary. Not me, not David, not Tico.”
To your last comment and this from Jeeper:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeeper
Pointing out Jon is an arsehole doesn't validate Richie being one…
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First, I didn’t mean to imply that I think Richie OR Jon are assholes, so I should have said, “If
you’re going to label Richie an asshole because he didn’t follow through on a commitment…”
Second, I didn’t compare Richie leaving the band with Jon canceling shows.
People say they don’t mind that Richie quit the band. The biggest beef seems to be that Richie didn’t show up in Calgary and left his “brothers” hanging without warning. And cqleonardo said
that made Richie an asshole. So, my only point was if the criteria for being labeled an asshole is not showing up and letting people down with no warning, then slap that brush on Jon, too. Because he just did the same thing. Period. And I stand by that.
I can see only one difference between Richie not showing up in Calgary (for whatever his personal reasons were) and Jon cancelling Denver to reschedule MSG (for whatever personal reasons
he had): I’m pretty sure that Richie knew, from experience, that the fans in Calgary would get a show whether he showed up or not because Jon would see to that. The fans in Denver (or wherever they’re coming in from – again!) won’t get
any show. Because when Jonny doesn’t show up, NOBODY shows up.
Is the impact equal for all fans? Probably not. Do I personally feel the impact of one decision more than the other? You betcha. But ethically speaking, the situations are the same. Personal reasons led to Jon and Richie breaking previous commitments, which in turn led to both of them letting people down with no warning. And both guys could have handled it differently, but they chose not to.
As far as we know. Which leads me back to my original post and the one I should perhaps stick to.
“We. Don’t. Know.”