So you've ripped it.............

I have to admit I'd have little moral conflict about winding people up who feel the need to play the MY FANDOM IS BETTER THAN YOURS-card. Stop trying to put objectivying golden stamps on your taste.

That's you saying that 50% of Bon Jovi fans are something or the other. They're not. You have no facts, you're just guessing. And you "stand by that", so, you're wrong saying you don't define Bon Jovi fans, you do, as you clearly show above. Can't you read your own posts?

Yes, you did, on both accounts. I quoted your exact words. Again, can't you read your own posts? I don't know what you think you wrote, but the posts are still there. Go and see.

And sometimes you have to exaggerate to get the point across. Especially when the other person doesn't want to see the point.

Again, you're defining a Bon Jovi fan. You don't know Bon Jovi fans, you can't tell me or the others what they think, trying to tell us how to think. Again, you're projecting your own feelings onto a group of imaginary people. They do not exist. You created them and now you're telling others that they should belong to that group. They don't. And I find it very plausible, that most Bon Jovi fans could like 1D's album better than WAN. Why not? But I wouldn't state that to be the case, as I don't know the opinions of Bon Jovi fans. And I couldn't ever, because they're not a homogenic group. You. Can't. Define. A. Bon. Jovi. Fan.

You just don't get it, do you. You have no facts! That's the point! You keep telling people what to do and how to think based on nothing but your opinions. And that is stupid and immature.

Yes, you absolutely did. And I quoted your words back to you. Go and read them again without projecting your own thoughts on them.

You're calling Bon Jovi a "daddy of all boybands"?

And stoip using the word "irony" when you clearly don't know what it means. I'll help you out. According to Wikipedia, irony is:
"an incongruity between the literal and the implied meaning" or "an incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result".

I fail to see how either of those fit in a scenario, where you think you're right and everybody else is wrong? It would be ironic if I said "oh, you're so clever" when I clearly mean you're not. Thinking I'm judging you because you don't like boybands isn't ironic, it's moronic.

A good start is the post, where you define a Bon Jovi fan.

Do you have trouble understanding English? You can't understand what you wrote and you misread my posts.

I didn't make a U-turn, I'm not telling you what to think. I'm telling you to stop telling me and others how "Bon Jovi fans" think. Because you don't know that. You know what YOU think, tell us that. Do not generalize and project YOUR thoughts on all Bon Jovi fans.

And you use those big words, but in all the wrong places. I'm not a hypocrite, i'm not telling you what to think. If you want to be a blinde follower who loves anything the band does, go ahead. I don't mind. As long as you don't come telling others that your way is better than theirs.

Ummm... No, you didn't. You just said you did. Saying "MOST fans" means you think you know how MOST fans think. You said that people, who are not fans like YOU define, should leave the board.

What you did, is you tried to deny what you did. You didn't show me anything. You may think you did, but read it back.

Opinions are not facts. And I'm not the one claiming my opinions are facts. But the fact, that you fail to see, is that YOU DON'T KNOW HOW BON JOVI FANS THINK. So, don't say you do. DOn't say "most fans" do this or that, don't tell anyone if he's a fan or not. You don't know and you also don't get to decide it.

You want facts? Show me the facts behind your statements. Show me the statistics where you show that most "Bon Jovi fans" (I'd love to see you define that) would prefer WAN over 1D's album in a double blind experiment. Then we'll talk facts. Up until then, it's opinions and you forcing yours on people.

Ice

You say:

and then
That's not a symptom of "superiority complex". First of all, it's you projecting your own feelings onto a post that has no such, even implied, feelings. Second, it's someone discussing their opinions. There's no superiority there.

No one is saying "I'm better than you because I don't like WAN". Someone repeating that would suffer from some soret of superiority problem. But the thing is, only one telling other what to think, how to act and what to listen to be a "real" Bon Jovi fan is YOU.

So, please, know what words mean before using them.

No, they aren't.

Patronising, yes. But could it just be that they still know more about it than you? And if you don't know something, wouldn't it be better to listen to those who do?

And again, you need to exaggerate to bring the point across. If I'd compared 1D and a Bon Jovi album, you probably would have started listing things how a Bon Jovi album is better. Which is not the point, as those are your opinions. But someone can like cow farts better than WAN and still be right. It's just opinions and neither you or I have the right to tell anyone their opinion is wrong and how they should act because of it.

Ice

Aloha !

Apart from point 3 none of it has anything to do with the music on the record. I'm not talking how the band is different as a unit, I'm talking as to how the songs are so incredibly different from a One Direction song. After all, we're judging the music here, right?

Like Alphavictim says, no one listens to Bon Jovi for their lyrics (anymore). I reckon fans of One Direction pay more attention to what they sing about than the average Bon Jovi fan.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

Right Iceman, here's the original post that you objected to.

You've accused me of:

1. Telling someone to get off the board.
2. Being the one who decides who is a fan and who isn't.
3. Thinking I know what a Bon Jovi fan is like.
4. Saying someone has no right to be on the board.
5. Giving orders to someone.
6. Telling people what to think.

If the basis for your agument is that you think there is a possibility that Bon Jovi fans, generally, would prefer the 1D album to WAN then you're past redemption.

I've not tried to "define a Bon Jovi fan". I've assumed that the majority would prefer a Bon Jovi album to 1D. That's a fairly reasonable assumption given that all of us are, you know, fans of Bon Jovi by definition. Inidentally, liking or disliking an album doesn't define a person.

Now as for irony. You've also accused me of trying to claim that I know people when I shouldn't. Yet you proclaimed me a blind follower. That isn't true and you can't back it up.

Irony is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as:

"a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result"

You expected that I tried to "know all Bon Jovi fans" which I didn't. Yet you made an assumption about me specifically which was wrong and that you can't really back up. That's irony according to one of the two bibles of the English language.

And finally, I'm a Take That fan and they're who I described as the daddy of boybands. Which may be an overstatement given there have been boybands since there has been music but it does illustrate that another one of your assumptions about me was wrong and that you look before you leap when posting because you assumed I was talking about Bon Jovi.

Are you claiming to know all Bon Jovi fans and what they listen to on an album?

Iceman will be all over you for this...

No, my arguments basis (this part of it) is the fact that YOU say they won't. I don't care who favours what, I couldn't care less. I don't like either. And BTW, I'm a Bon Jovi fan.

There you do it again. You don't know. You CAN'T know, so why try?

Like I said, I don't claim to know you, nor do I want to, but you act like a blind follower, ie. you believe that Bon Jovi albums sell because of their quality and you define a die-hard as someone who buys every album, no matter what. Me saying that you act like that is a fact, not ironic.

I didn't expect anything, you did. The posts are still up for anyone to read.

I didn't make an assumption, I said you act like a blind follower. Which you do. And still, even if I was wrong, it wouldn't be ironic. You really don't seem to understand what you read. What would be ironic in this situation, would be if I called you a blind follower, but it would turn out to be not true, but that I would be one instead. That would be ironic, not a flase assumption (which I didn't make, just to be clear).

I didn't assume anything. Once again, your grasp of sarcasm and English seems a bit loose. If you want to define a father of boy bands, you'd have to way into history, to bands like Bay City Rollers. Even NKOTB have a lot more muscle to claim the title that Take That.

I called Bon Jovi a boy band, because that's what they've become. They use outside writers all the time, write disposable pop songs and produce albums they think will be "relevant" and sell well. It's not a rock band any more.

So, you underestimate the intelligence of others and over-estimate yours. You still said Panda wasn't a real fan and told him to stop posting here. You claim you can't be a die-hard if you don't buy all the albums and you say you can define a Bon Jovi fan buy knowing which albums he likes.

You're wrong on all accounts.

Ice

Ok, we can go around in circles and I can continue to show how you either can't understand facts or have gone so far down the route of being wrong that you can't turn back without ruining your 'credibility'. I'm happy enough to do that if you want. Your aggressive posting, full of overstatement and lies doesn't deter me. Makes me laugh if anything.

I'll just take the above.

1. I never said Panda wasn't a real fan.
2. I never told him to stop posting here.
3. I never said you can't be a die hard if you don't buy all the albums.
4. I never tried to define any Bon Jovi fans. I just made a reasonable assumption (like you did about BSWJBJ members and Seb did about all Bon Jovi fans)

That's four mistruths in two sentences. Well done son, you're on target for a world record there.

You clearly don't understand why what you did was ironic. But it was and you saying it wasn't doesn't change that. Also taking one of my quotes about irony above and distorting it to try and rescue your failed argument is a bit disingenuous but I've come to expect that from you. That sort of carry on is the last refuge of the spoofer.

Bet you regret sticking your nose in now.

Stick to talk of cow farts and let the big boys talk some sense in peace.

Must pull you up on this one too. You didn't say I "act like a blind follower" and you did make an assumption about me.

You said, and I quote:

That's definitive buddy. You've no wriggle room on this one. But it's just the latest in a series of over-reactions, mistruths and downright lies from an incoherent, bluster-filled, immature keyboard warrior who has a penchant for cow farts.

This is one of the stupidest debates I've ever read.

And I think one of you should define "blind fan"

If you are a New York Yankees fan and they have a few bad seasons do you stop going to games? Lets say they had a couple of ok years but didnt make the playoffs. Do you stop being a fan? Do you jump ship and become a Boston fan? Or do you look at their legacy and stay dedicated for life?

I know what most of you would do. I would love to see how some of you cope in real-life. With careers, relationships, friends.

From '83 to '00 Bon Jovi left a legacy behind. From '00 to current they are still having great moments although maybe not constant. If Jon wants to do something outside the box for artistic satisfaction, I back him.

At this point there is more to being a fan than an album ranking a 10 or not.

This new album is very good. Its got the Bon Jovi sound with Bon Jovi lyrics. Is it as great as Slippey? Hell No! But I do credit Jons longevity on change and staying true.

The differnce between me and a backstage member is, I will rip up Jon. Just like I'd rip up the Yankees for not performing. But I'll always support and be a dedicated fan.

Character People!!!!!