Expensive or not - that is the question...

Roxannah · #11 01-16-2011, 08:28 PM

Kuba, don't put all Western Europe in the same bag. you know, there's 1st class Western Europe and then there are the PIIGS

~ which is an acronym coined by the finantial markets to describe Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain. in other words, the economic troublemakers and the eurozone black sheep.

i understand what you're saying though. the cost of living in the countries you have mentioned is high, but i believe the cost of living in Eastern Europe is higher in proportion to the wages. i have spent 9 months in the Czech Republic on Erasmus and another 6 months in Serbia, and i noticed that the cost of living in these countries is lower than in Portugal but not by much. actually i didn't notice much difference in the Czech Republic at all. In Serbia for example, the minimum wage is about 4 times lower than that of ours, however grossery shopping, the costs with internet service, electricity etc, is more or less the same as here. it's really hard for these people to save any money at all. which is not saying that it isn't hard for people in more economically fortunate countries to save money.

i guess it all comes down to your priorities in life and how much sacrifice you're willing to make to get the things you want ~ be that travelling abroad to see a Jovi concert or anything else. and that is universal.

tigrs99 · #12 01-16-2011, 09:07 PM

Person making minimum wage in US
will hardly pay any tax. Even tax at low income
between 10-15% but due to standard deduction
and personal exemption close to $9,000 a yr
his tax at most be $1000 a yr
and person on minimum wage prb dont
have health insurance but going to a concert
will be last thing on his mind

SadieLady · #13 01-16-2011, 10:04 PM

There are other reasons besides financial that may keep someone from seeing the band. However, I do remember my poverty days and they were painful. Those years did teach me the value of what I wanted/needed in my life. When you are poor, you can barely afford needs much less wants.

Whatever price you pay to see the band, they seem to give good value. I a glad that YouTube exists and that the band occasionally streams their concerts.

SamboraRocks · #14 01-16-2011, 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuba80BJ

Any thoughts?

what about the average costs for living in all the different countries?
You may earn less in Poland or in other eatern european countries than ppl who live elsewhere but you also have to pay less for many things like food, gas, rent etc.

Kuba80BJ · #15 01-17-2011, 01:02 AM

First of all I think that some of you concentrated way too much on minimum wages as enough money to make someone decide about going to BJ show. It was not my point at all. I agree with all of you that those who get the minimum wages probably would not think for a second about going to see BJ show at home country, not even to mention abroad (at least not in Poland). Especially if they have families and their expenses are higher (even though in some countries I still say that some might afford it even with minimum wages). Minimum wages were the only objective way that came to my mind to show you the difference in incomes between our countries and the only ones I could find on the web. If we put particular jobs on the table you’d be even more amazed how little money people get in my country compared to yours. That was the main reason for a huge emigration movement after Poland joined EU. Thousands of people left the country to get better paid jobs abroad (mostly in UK and Ireland) and most of them never came back.

I’ve experienced those economic differences years ago personally. I was working in USA (1998 ), Holland (2003) and Ireland (2004&2005). So believe me, I know what I am talking about very well.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SamboraRocks

what about the average costs for living in all the different countries?
You may earn less in Poland or in other eatern european countries than ppl who live elsewhere but you also have to pay less for many things like food, gas, rent etc.

And here’s the bottom line. Rosie79 started explaining it very clearly, but I will follow her thoughts even more. If you think that we earn less but the cost of living in our country is way lower than yours (those rich countries I mentioned before), than you couldn’t have been more wrong. Actually I had to start with the wages to end up with showing you disproportion between the incomes vs cost of living between your countries and mine. Basically saying most of the things that we buy at the shops cost us exactly the same as yourselves, only we are earning 3-6 times less. Just as I have said, BJ show was only an example, but we can compare everyday life costs to show you how it looks. Here are the costs of them in Poland:

0,5kg of bread (but not toast bread) – 2PLN - about €0,5
1 litre of milk – 2,5PLN - about €0,625
Can of Coca-Cola (0,3l) – 2 PLN - about €0,5
1kg of cheese – from 20PLN - about €5
10 eggs – 4 PLN - about €1
1litre of diesel – 4,75PLN - about €1,18
1litre of petrol/gas (98 ) – 5,15PLN - about €1,28
Music CD (any foreign artist) – 60PLN - about €15
Ticket to the cinema – 22PLN - about €5,5
Ticket to 3D movie in the cinema – 27PLN - about €6,75
Internet broadband 10Mb/s – 70PLN/month - about €17,5
Rent of a one room flat (where living room is also a bedroom + kitchen + bathroom) – 1000PLN/month + about 300PLN/month for water, electricity, gas, heating - in the most average part of the town, the closer to the centre, the higher it is - about €250 + €75 – by the way I am talking about my hometown, but the capital of Warsaw is more expensive
Any brand new car worth about €20 000 costs us 80 000PLN
Any Plasma TV worth about €1000 costs us 4000PLN

You know we could go on with examples forever. But I think you can see it right away that most of these goods cost us exactly the same they cost you. You only have to calculate them using the current exchange rates (€1=4PLN) and there you have our costs. I think the only main difference is the cost of accommodation rent which is more or less in proportion of 1 to 1. Most of everything else is 1 to 4 (compared to the countries in € zone). So what really matters is not how much you earn, but how much you can buy for that. For example for €100 you can buy 200 cans of Coke, but for 100PLN I can buy only 50. And here’s where the biggest disproportion between us is hidden.

By the way all the goods in USA are even cheaper than in the rest of Europe (diesel, petrol, CDs, electronics or cars are a great example) which makes the differences even bigger (again). For me it’s just simpler to compare the things to European countries.

Kuba80BJ · #16 01-17-2011, 01:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tigrs99

You forget cost of living in US and Europe, even if you make $100,000/yr living in NYC is not much as you will paying close to $30,000 a year for rent or mortgage for a 1 Bed room apt in decent part of Manhattan, health care costs will set you back by another $7,000-10,000 a year.
And if you factor in cost of raising kids, child care, transportation, insurance on $100,000 a year u will barely survive after paying federal and state taxes

With all the respect to your post I think that if someone lives in NYC in Manhattan, it means he’s not an ordinary Joe, that’s for sure. As far as I know Manhattan is the most expensive and the most representative part of NYC (I've seen it personally and it's great by the way), and probably one of the most expensive places in the whole world to live in (if you talk about house or flat prices). So no matter how much is left in that person’s wallet at the end of each month, his/hers quality of life is far above average anyway. Of course you pay a lot for it, but you get back a lot for it too. And all of that ‘high quality life’ ingredients are hidden in all the goods and services that person is able to buy. I mean if you buy a Ferrari you don’t complain that it burns 20 litres of gas/100km. If you live in Manhattan you don’t complain that the rent is high.

If you want to talk about the costs of living in USA and Europe, you can have a look at the cost of living in my country in the post above and share with us what it’s like in your country (are you from USA?). I’d like to get more info about it.

Jim Bon Jovi · #17 01-17-2011, 02:02 AM

As people have already pointed out, the cost of living in Poland and elsewhere in Eastern Europe is much much less.

You can't use your figures in an absolute sense. Obviously if you're going to travel to a country with a much higher standard of living and a worse exchange rate you'll get shafted.

HappyFan · #18 01-17-2011, 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kuba80BJ

First of all I think that some of you concentrated way too much on minimum wages as enough money to make someone decide about going to BJ show. It was not my point at all. I agree with all of you that those who get the minimum wages probably would not think for a second about going to see BJ show at home country, not even to mention abroad (at least not in Poland). Especially if they have families and their expenses are higher (even though in some countries I still say that some might afford it even with minimum wages). Minimum wages were the only objective way that came to my mind to show you the difference in incomes between our countries and the only ones I could find on the web. If we put particular jobs on the table you’d be even more amazed how little money people get in my country compared to yours. That was the main reason for a huge emigration movement after Poland joined EU. Thousands of people left the country to get better paid jobs abroad (mostly in UK and Ireland) and most of them never came back.

I’ve experienced those economic differences years ago personally. I was working in USA (1998 ), Holland (2003) and Ireland (2004&2005). So believe me, I know what I am talking about very well.

And here’s the bottom line. Rosie79 started explaining it very clearly, but I will follow her thoughts even more. If you think that we earn less but the cost of living in our country is way lower than yours (those rich countries I mentioned before), than you couldn’t have been more wrong. Actually I had to start with the wages to end up with showing you disproportion between the incomes vs cost of living between your countries and mine. Basically saying most of the things that we buy at the shops cost us exactly the same as yourselves, only we are earning 3-6 times less. Just as I have said, BJ show was only an example, but we can compare everyday life costs to show you how it looks. Here are the costs of them in Poland:

0,5kg of bread (but not toast bread) – 2PLN - about €0,5
1 litre of milk – 2,5PLN - about €0,625
Can of Coca-Cola (0,3l) – 2 PLN - about €0,5
1kg of cheese – from 20PLN - about €5
10 eggs – 4 PLN - about €1
1litre of diesel – 4,75PLN - about €1,18
1litre of petrol/gas (98 ) – 5,15PLN - about €1,28
Music CD (any foreign artist) – 60PLN - about €15
Ticket to the cinema – 22PLN - about €5,5
Ticket to 3D movie in the cinema – 27PLN - about €6,75
Internet broadband 10Mb/s – 70PLN/month - about €17,5
Rent of a one room flat (where living room is also a bedroom + kitchen + bathroom) – 1000PLN/month + about 300PLN/month for water, electricity, gas, heating - in the most average part of the town, the closer to the centre, the higher it is - about €250 + €75 – by the way I am talking about my hometown, but the capital of Warsaw is more expensive
Any brand new car worth about €20 000 costs us 80 000PLN
Any Plasma TV worth about €1000 costs us 4000PLN

You know we could go on with examples forever. But I think you can see it right away that most of these goods cost us exactly the same they cost you. You only have to calculate them using the current exchange rates (€1=4PLN) and there you have our costs. I think the only main difference is the cost of accommodation rent which is more or less in proportion of 1 to 1. Most of everything else is 1 to 4 (compared to the countries in € zone). So what really matters is not how much you earn, but how much you can buy for that. For example for €100 you can buy 200 cans of Coke, but for 100PLN I can buy only 50. And here’s where the biggest disproportion between us is hidden.

By the way all the goods in USA are even cheaper than in the rest of Europe (diesel, petrol, CDs, electronics or cars are a great example) which makes the differences even bigger (again). For me it’s just simpler to compare the things to European countries.

Sorry but you have lost me on the coke example maybe I am tired but if you have 100 euro and you can buy 200 cans of coke... wouldn't you have to compare the exchange rate of 100 euro in PLN which is 387.5PLN, which means you can buy 193 cans which says your buying power is the same. Like I said I'm tired from traveling so maybe i'm not reading it right.

Also I went through your price list and your statement that "by the way all the goods in the USA are even cheaper than in the rest of Europe" WTF? I compared you costs listed to that what we would pay in the US (even dug around in my purse for actual cost I have paid within the last week)

eggs 4 PLN = 1.38 USD Paid 3.59 USD(egglands best if the americans are wondering)
Loaf of bread 2 PLN = .68 usd paid 3.49 usd pepperidge farm short loaf

movie 22 PLN = 7.58 USD generally movies are around 12.50 USD a ticket
music CD import 60 pLN = 20.67 USD 2 weeks ago I bought a import CD from japan and it was 32 USD
Internet access 70 PLN = 24.12 USD I pay 60 USD a month for internet.
Rent 1000 PLN = 344.55 USD you couldn't live in a dog house for that in the US best rent not in a large city would be around 900 a month.
Utilities 300 PLN = 103.37 USD water 60 USD, electric 90 usd and heating oil averages 250 per month.

The items just don't cost the same, the cost of living in the US is far higher than in your country.

Your perceptions of the US even after working here surprises me. There are very average income and below average income people living in NYC (Manhattan), I am not sure what special things you think people get who live in manhattan but you couldn't be further off in your statements. Where did you work in the US if you don't mind me asking?

Supersonic · #19 01-17-2011, 06:22 AM

Aloha !

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Bon Jovi

As people have already pointed out, the cost of living in Poland and elsewhere in Eastern Europe is much much less.

Yeah, and someone from Poland working in Germany can pay off his house in Poland in 4 years. However, if I'd work the same hours in Holland I'd never be able to pay off my house in Holland.

The economy has changed, half of Poland is working outside of Poland (yeah I know, figure of speech, but everyone outside of Europe knows what I'm talking about) so it's not making sense. America is way more expensive to live than Holland, sure, some things are cheaper (as in gas and owning a car) but the costs to live there are more expensive and the average income is a lot lower which makes Bon Jovi way more expensive over there than it'd be for the average Joe in Poland.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

Shaz · #20 01-17-2011, 11:38 AM

Whatever way you look at it, A$1970 for a front row seat here, compared to A$200 3 years is expensive. Australia may be 'wealthy' Kuba, but we are also one of the most taxed countries in the world as well.

Expensive or not - that is the question...

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