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Originally Posted by KSantaFe
I don't see the relevance of this at all. Ok, so in this hypothetical scenario we might have derogatory terms for male fans - this still wouldn't be acceptable.
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Ok, that might really have been an unrelevant scenario of mine, kind of a spontaneous "mind blob". Still, you're right - this would not be acceptable either.
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But that's the whole point. You can always "see" where stereotypes come from - idiots who generalise Muslims as being terrorists base this on the fact that there is an element of Islamic extremism at the moment. But its not good enough to casually brush it off. I find those fans who idolise the band, especially Jon, to a level beyond just respect or admiration, deluded. And I'm certain that there are also male fans with this "blind faith" in Jon. But regardless, we don't need to bring gender into the equation because that has little or nothing to do with it. I'm sure you've heard and read the opinions of many female fans, and can agree that many women are equally scathing on the band as men. Intentions are intentions, it's what you try to say - but that doesn't shield you from criticism when your intentions can be interpreted as offensive.
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From that scathing point (I'll interpret that as "criticizing"), yes, that might be the truth. But Bon Jovi just has that image of being a band catering to a middle-aged women who listen to their songs while ironing or what not, and that does not come from nowhere. Those who are following the band, going to their shows etc., are women, a few husbands/boyfriends and then male people who go there because they actually like the band. But based on my experience, I would say there are more female fans in general, and more women amongst these who do the worshipping. So gender does matter, the one way or the other (not in the way of: all women are deluded Jon-lovers, but the other way round - that there are more deluded Jon-lovers amonst women) Still, I would not say that this
really matters
for the point, because it is what it is. The point - and I "admit" that freely - is that many built a stereotype around this, and I can understand why many women are pissed off about this.
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I understand, it's very easy to see a middle-aged woman rocking out to BWC at a concert and assume "she's just one of those Backstage with JBJ housewives - she probably can't even tell or doesn't want to admit that Jon's voice is shot". But there's no way to actually tell from one's appearance if they are a housewife.
And even so, what's wrong with being a so-called "housewife"? Nothing in my book, and it certainly doesn't mean they can't have a valid opinion, or that their tastes don't matter!
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I don't have anything against housewives. I'm of the opinion that people should decide themselves what they want to do in their lives, and if there's the opportunity to become one and they want to - why not? There are even some men doing this. And I actually estimate those people (who are doing it because of their own free will) quite high, especially when it comes to raising children, because I think parents - in the most cases - know what's best for their own children.
So, to put it in a nut shell,
of course are they human beings like any one of us, thus equipped with some inalienable rights, like the right to their own opinion and free speech. The problem is, that some don't know how to use it, so that it's easier for me to simply ignore them (which does
not mean that I would forbid them to use it, even if I could).
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I'm not saying that all people who have criticised those Jon-worshiping (or Richie-worshiping etc.) fans, calling them 'housewives', are misogynists. To me it's kind of like ... when I was younger I'd often use the term 'gay' to mean 'bad' or 'unfavourable' - like if it was raining and my football match was cancelled I'd say "oh man that's gay". Yeah stupid-sounding I know, and even then I was very supportive of gay rights, marriage equality etc., I certainly wouldn't have considered myself a homophobe. But as I got older I realised that my use of homophobic slurs was totally unjustified and unfair on the LGBT community, and I made a point to stop. Similar thing here.
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Yeah. And that's why I suggested giving those fans another name, which does
not put all housewives under the stereotype of Jon-worshipping, brainless idiots.
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So no, I don't think I'm overreacting. When someone feels as though they are being prejudged due to their gender, regardless of intention, then that's not something I can let slide.
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I totally see your point in stating that, as I would consider myself a very liberal- and civil-rights-minded guy. But that's no reason to behave as if the end is nigh if we don't do anything about it. And no reason to use some straw man arguments like "Stop insulting all female fans", either. And I'm saying that as someone who doesn't use the term "housewife" to insult uncritical, deluded fans. Plus, please don't forget that this Jovi-housewife-stereotype does attack every Bon Jovi fan, as many "outsiders" view Bon Jovi as a band for middle-aged women with little to no brains and low standards. So I do know what I'm talking about. It might just be that my skin is a bit thicker than that of many others, so that I don't take this so damn seriosly.
And while it is surely important to state one's interest not to be put into one or the other stereotype, I just tried to find something like a common solution, because, you know, I don't like extremes, the one way or the other. That's why I ended my last post as I did. Only, that nobody seems to really care about it.
By the way, maybe this all should be moved to a separate thread. This is the album thread, after all, and it got pretty much derailed.