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Official July 20, 2011 - Olympic Stadium, Athens, Greece thread

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  #351  
Old 07-22-2011, 05:10 PM
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The balance in Greece is gone for a while now.
Perhaps the Greek do work harder and more then the Germans but its not Germany that is bankrupt, it's Greece so compairing the two has no use as Germany has a healthier system.

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That was not a comparison but a simple answer to why and how Germany is being benefited from the single currency (and the eurozone's crisis). Two different things. And that is the biggest problem of the EU, like I said. Different economies with a single currency, that cannot and won't forge common fiscal policies. If there is no political intergration, the EU will continue to face the same structural problems as now.
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  #352  
Old 07-22-2011, 05:44 PM
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Well, I don't know if I get all that the right way, but it's not like we were a weak economy before the Euro. Many to most Germans don't want the Euro (anymore). It's not like it saved us somehow. Our currency was strong, we surely didn't need another one. I believe we need it because Europe needs it in the grand scheme of things (but that's a whole different topic), and it was clear (to me) that Germany as one of the or the strongest market will have to pay quite a bit to make it work - which is now the case, and many people in my country don't seem to understand why we should pay for Greece's problems. Hardly anyone sees any benefit from that. And I must say, neither do I, but nonetheless I think it's necessary.
I know what you mean and I'm pretty sure Greeks would feel the same if they were asked to "bail out" some other country. But historically speaking, Germany's growth after the reunification was dragged down, in a way that many analysts described the country as a big liability in Europe. It was after the introduction of the euro that its GDP has started to grow significantly - and most important that Germany had started to exert its power as an exporting country.

Those bail outs are catastrophic for the southern countries, while hugely beneficial for Germany's market, as they provide a cheap market for their manufacturers. We lose economic sovereignty and you gain cheap labour. Simple as that. I understand though why the majority of German voters who don't know much how the economy works, are negative about paying to save other countries. Same here. Most people think that it's a good thing that we take loans from the IMF and the EU but in fact it's not. We need growth and growth cannot be achieved without our own currency.
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  #353  
Old 07-22-2011, 08:26 PM
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Just checking out what happened recently and I see this "no effort" list for Greece. I know that the fans had to be happy no matter what, you finally got the band to play, so whatever... but it looks like Jon knew that too.

Poor Greeks, after they got bailed out to be able to afford Jovi tickets,
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  #354  
Old 07-23-2011, 12:01 AM
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I know what you mean and I'm pretty sure Greeks would feel the same if they were asked to "bail out" some other country. But historically speaking, Germany's growth after the reunification was dragged down, in a way that many analysts described the country as a big liability in Europe. It was after the introduction of the euro that its GDP has started to grow significantly - and most important that Germany had started to exert its power as an exporting country.

Those bail outs are catastrophic for the southern countries, while hugely beneficial for Germany's market, as they provide a cheap market for their manufacturers. We lose economic sovereignty and you gain cheap labour. Simple as that. I understand though why the majority of German voters who don't know much how the economy works, are negative about paying to save other countries. Same here. Most people think that it's a good thing that we take loans from the IMF and the EU but in fact it's not. We need growth and growth cannot be achieved without our own currency.
"As simple as that" ...hear hear. Irini, don't be ridiculous and stop reading Greek Sunday press!
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  #355  
Old 07-24-2011, 05:57 PM
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If Germany and French dont help with 'saving/helping' Greece their own economy would get a pretty beating as a lot of banks and retirementfunds invested in Greece. If they don't help Greece they lose this invested money. I think you can fill in the blanks from that point on.

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  #356  
Old 07-24-2011, 07:12 PM
schlochty schlochty is offline
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I have been following this discussion for a while and I wasn't going to participate in it. Certain people however are trying to make it look like Germany is benefiting from other countries problems or even the single currency. That is simply not true.

Starting with the introduction of the single currency up until the beginning of the global financial crisis and its subsequent impact on the EU, the German economy was stagnant. Unemployment rates increased GDP and GNP as well as average income lacked any kind of growth. Meanwhile, these figures improved (sometimes significantly) in the vast majority of all other EU member states. It is only since the Germany's emergence from the global financial downturn that we have started to benefit from the single currency. This is, however, due to the fact that Germany is (and has been for decades) a net exporting economy. Germany therefore benefits from a relatively weak Euro because it means goods from the Eurozone are comparably cheap to import for people from outside the Eurozone.

Secondly, this is quite important to me, Germany does not take advantage from or exploit Greece's, Ireland's and Portugals economic problems. It's not like Germany volunteered to bail out those countries. There simply is no other option. The only reason economically (relatively) healthy countries are giving loans to economically troubled countries is because many of the peripheral EU member countries have not been able to get their act together for years. I felt that some people in this topic have started blaming countries like Germany for other country's shortcomings and mistakes.

The roots of the problems are a bit more complex than that. It is the problem of a system with many design flaws that need to be adressed. Greece, for example should have never been granted access to the EU. Admission regulations have been way too lax in the past. This, of course, is perfectly displayed by the fact that Greece's successful attempt at faking key economic indicators, which was rather obvious in retrospective, in order to be admitted into the EU was only discoverd years after Greece had become a member of the EU.
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  #357  
Old 07-25-2011, 04:41 PM
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Thank you, just one more thing: of course there are some benefits for us IF we ever get the money back, but if you think any country would help you out of brotherly love then that's rather naive in a capitalist world.
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  #358  
Old 07-25-2011, 04:49 PM
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I have been following this discussion for a while and I wasn't going to participate in it. Certain people however are trying to make it look like Germany is benefiting from other countries problems or even the single currency. That is simply not true.

Starting with the introduction of the single currency up until the beginning of the global financial crisis and its subsequent impact on the EU, the German economy was stagnant. Unemployment rates increased GDP and GNP as well as average income lacked any kind of growth. Meanwhile, these figures improved (sometimes significantly) in the vast majority of all other EU member states. It is only since the Germany's emergence from the global financial downturn that we have started to benefit from the single currency. This is, however, due to the fact that Germany is (and has been for decades) a net exporting economy. Germany therefore benefits from a relatively weak Euro because it means goods from the Eurozone are comparably cheap to import for people from outside the Eurozone.

Secondly, this is quite important to me, Germany does not take advantage from or exploit Greece's, Ireland's and Portugals economic problems. It's not like Germany volunteered to bail out those countries. There simply is no other option. The only reason economically (relatively) healthy countries are giving loans to economically troubled countries is because many of the peripheral EU member countries have not been able to get their act together for years. I felt that some people in this topic have started blaming countries like Germany for other country's shortcomings and mistakes.

The roots of the problems are a bit more complex than that. It is the problem of a system with many design flaws that need to be adressed. Greece, for example should have never been granted access to the EU. Admission regulations have been way too lax in the past. This, of course, is perfectly displayed by the fact that Greece's successful attempt at faking key economic indicators, which was rather obvious in retrospective, in order to be admitted into the EU was only discoverd years after Greece had become a member of the EU.
I basically agree with you, but I never said that Germany is to blame for Greece's problems. Furthermore, the EU and the eurozone are not the same, and I guess you meant that Greece (and other countries) shouldn't have been given access to the eurozone, which is true.
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  #359  
Old 07-25-2011, 04:59 PM
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"As simple as that" ...hear hear. Irini, don't be ridiculous and stop reading Greek Sunday press!
Actually, I don't only read the Greek Sunday press, I work for it. BUT, believe me, you won't read the stuff I write here on Greece's mainstream newspapers, unless it is focused on economy -- like it happens in foreign press as well.
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  #360  
Old 07-27-2011, 04:06 AM
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