[rockingguy82]

Originally Posted by kleman

My short review :

This Munich show was my best from all three (2006,2008,2011). Jon really gave 120% and the band really enjoy it.
The stage is simply amazing and without a doubt best ever. The crowd in golden circle was lame, specially in my area in the middle.
My hightlights... WWWB, Memory, These days, Always, Water, Someday....
Actually i really didn t miss Sambo that much,Phil did a fantastic job, he is a one hell of a guitar player.
Like i sad one of the best concert, great setlist, 3 hours, band on fire.....8/10

Can't believe he didn't give 125% or even 130%. Lazy.

[DevilsSon]

Originally Posted by Supersonic

With every subsequent tour Bon Jovi has been drawing fewer and fewer people at concerts all over Europe. There's a reason they're playing cities like Gdansk, Lisbon and Sofia nowadays; those cities make up for the tickets they can no longer sell in Germany and the U.K..

Right. I read this three lines of yours about 4 times and I am still surprised how many times you can actually contradict yourself...all of it in just 3 lines. Reminds me of a discussion we had about the Scorpions and their drawing power.

So - first - they are losing crowds ALL over Europe....but wait - places like Gdansk and Sofia are completely sold out. So it's not all over Europe then...in fact, they are actually gaining audiences across Europe, but losing audience in saturated markets with decreasing levels of disposable income. Like Berlin. Surprise surprise. If anything, it's bad planning. Munich still sold solidly. And so do most of their 'Core' cities. It's the 'periphery' that changes.

Also - I liked your 'nowadays' qualifier for Lisbon. As if they never played the city before. They played there in 1989, and they actually played a stadium gig there in 1993 (one of the fewer stadium gigs on that tour). They played in 1995 again...and then in 2008 again. As an example, they never played Amsterdam before 2000 (and the only time they played a stadium there was 200 but in your imagination Lisbon is one of those new cities on their map.

Anyway - it's not that I give a damn, it's just that you have a tendency to portray your 'perception' as 'facts' when, in fact, they are nothing but opinions really and should be classified accordingly.

[ezearis]

Just listened to the Dry County of this night. It's one of my favourite songs, but I'd rather have no Dry County that that version. Really, Phil's solo was great, but it lacks emotion and Jon's voice just kills the mood. Everyone says that the Bounce Tour was the worst speaking about his voice, well, I really believe this one is the worst by far.

[Supersonic]

Aloha !

Originally Posted by DevilsSon

Right. I read this three lines of yours about 4 times and I am still surprised how many times you can actually contradict yourself...all of it in just 3 lines. So - first - they are losing crowds ALL over Europe....but wait - places like Gdansk and Sofia are completely sold out. So it's not all over Europe then...

Yes it is. However, you can't lose something when you haven't gained it in the first place, thus I'm excluding the markets that get their first show ever. And for the record, Gdansk isn't sold out, there's still over 10.000 tickets available.

Originally Posted by DevilsSon

in fact, they are actually gaining audiences across Europe, but losing audience in saturated markets with decreasing levels of disposable income. Like Berlin. Surprise surprise. If anything, it's bad planning. Munich still sold solidly. And so do most of their 'Core' cities. It's the 'periphery' that changes.

Actually, Munich and Cologne are the only "core" cities that are selling like they hoped they would. Dublin, Stuttgart, London, and Manchester are still far from sold out. As a matter of fact, Dublin has never sold as poorly as it's doing this tour. It's blatantly obvious how the market in the U.K. is saturated with too many shows in a short timespan. Bon Jovi used to do 5-6 shows on one tour in Germany, they're doing 4 now, yet sell tickets for about 3 stadium shows. That's pretty much 50-60% of what they used to sell just 5 years ago.

Originally Posted by DevilsSon

Also - I liked your 'nowadays' qualifier for Lisbon. As if they never played the city before. They played there in 1989, and they actually played a stadium gig there in 1993 (one of the fewer stadium gigs on that tour). They played in 1995 again...and then in 2008 again.

I'm not sure how it works for regular products, but I do know that when it comes to a touring act; a city or country not toured for a decade is a new territory, thus Lisbon is a relatively new city on their map. Yet their third show in 5 years, for which they sold 55.000 tickets in 2011 is far from sold out. Would Lisbon be in a similar stadium like Berlin, it'd have been downsized as well.

Originally Posted by DevilsSon

As an example, they never played Amsterdam before 2000 (and the only time they played a stadium there was 200 but in your imagination Lisbon is one of those new cities on their map.

Though the band played Amsterdam, it's merely them doing a show in Holland. It doesn't matter much if the band plays Amsterdam or anywhere more in the middle or south of Holland; casuals will go see them anyway. Amsterdam the city was new to them, but they've never ignored Holland during any tour, and therefore Amsterdam wasn't a new territory for them.

Now they'd played Amsterdam 4 times in a timespan of 7 years, and yet with every subsequent visit fewer people visited. I'm not sure where you get the idea they've only played a stadium there once, all shows were done in the same venue. 2001 had 2 shows with a total capacity of 90.000 people, 2003 had 1 with 45.000 and 2008 had 35.000.

The last time Bon Jovi played Holland however, only 25.000 tickets were sold, thus promoters are no longer able to come up with the fee Bon Jovi are asking, and thus the band needs to go to other places much like Gdansk. The problem is however that where (close to) sold out shows were expected, the band isn't getting them at all. A show in the Gelredome, Arnhem, has been planned twice in a row now, but promoters can't come up with the money Bon Jovi wants, so they need to expand to markets they haven't saturated with shows. Which is another problem, as every country seems to be saturated right now, even the cities that've only gotten 3 shows the past 15 years or so.

Originally Posted by DevilsSon

Anyway - it's not that I give a damn, it's just that you have a tendency to portray your 'perception' as 'facts' when, in fact, they are nothing but opinions really and should be classified accordingly.

I hope I hereby have explained well enough on how this isn't an opinion, but a fact. I know you know economy well enough to understand the basic principles of supply and demand and I'm positive you've got a good understanding of how a market works. I'd like to leave the pointless digs at our personas aside because it's getting old, but I honestly wonder why it is so difficult to understand for you?

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

[ihecsien]

Hi guys,

Don't forget there is a huge economic crisis in Europa + Richie who's missing,

That can explain why there wasn'tn 70.000 fans as usual in Munich

[Jonty]

Originally Posted by Supersonic

Aloha !



Yes it is. However, you can't lose something when you haven't gained it in the first place, thus I'm excluding the markets that get their first show ever. And for the record, Gdansk isn't sold out, there's still over 10.000 tickets available.



Actually, Munich and Cologne are the only "core" cities that are selling like they hoped they would. Dublin, Stuttgart, London, and Manchester are still far from sold out. As a matter of fact, Dublin has never sold as poorly as it's doing this tour. It's blatantly obvious how the market in the U.K. is saturated with too many shows in a short timespan. Bon Jovi used to do 5-6 shows on one tour in Germany, they're doing 4 now, yet sell tickets for about 3 stadium shows. That's pretty much 50-60% of what they used to sell just 5 years ago.



I'm not sure how it works for regular products, but I do know that when it comes to a touring act; a city or country not toured for a decade is a new territory, thus Lisbon is a relatively new city on their map. Yet their third show in 5 years, for which they sold 55.000 tickets in 2011 is far from sold out. Would Lisbon be in a similar stadium like Berlin, it'd have been downsized as well.



Though the band played Amsterdam, it's merely them doing a show in Holland. It doesn't matter much if the band plays Amsterdam or anywhere more in the middle or south of Holland; casuals will go see them anyway. Amsterdam the city was new to them, but they've never ignored Holland during any tour, and therefore Amsterdam wasn't a new territory for them.

Now they'd played Amsterdam 4 times in a timespan of 7 years, and yet with every subsequent visit fewer people visited. I'm not sure where you get the idea they've only played a stadium there once, all shows were done in the same venue. 2001 had 2 shows with a total capacity of 90.000 people, 2003 had 1 with 45.000 and 2008 had 35.000.

The last time Bon Jovi played Holland however, only 25.000 tickets were sold, thus promoters are no longer able to come up with the fee Bon Jovi are asking, and thus the band needs to go to other places much like Gdansk. The problem is however that where (close to) sold out shows were expected, the band isn't getting them at all. A show in the Gelredome, Arnhem, has been planned twice in a row now, but promoters can't come up with the money Bon Jovi wants, so they need to expand to markets they haven't saturated with shows. Which is another problem, as every country seems to be saturated right now, even the cities that've only gotten 3 shows the past 15 years or so.



I hope I hereby have explained well enough on how this isn't an opinion, but a fact. I know you know economy well enough to understand the basic principles of supply and demand and I'm positive you've got a good understanding of how a market works. I'd like to leave the pointless digs at our personas aside because it's getting old, but I honestly wonder why it is so difficult to understand for you?

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

Very well put Seb. A good story is a short story!!

Should have played an arena tour and then played some really random places, like say Belfast!!! Could have even played Tennants Vital for us instead of Snow Patrol!

[bonjovi90]

Whereas I was totally letdown by the performance of WWWB in 2011, I really enjoyed it this time around, especially with Jon being much more into it and doing ad-libs in the end:

Bon Jovi - Munich, May 18th, 2013 - When We Were...