[Raz0r]

Ironically, as much as I love Chinese Democracy now, I didn't care for it when I first listened to it. It was definitely a grower for me. In the late 90's early 2000's I was really into NuMetal which had died out by 2008, but it was still my taste because I wasn't into Metalcore or Emo which was taking off. When Chinese Democracy came out, I was expecting something new. I didn't know if I would like it, but I was excited to hear something new. Instead, I found it to be something that could have been released in the mid 90's. It sounded dated, out of its time. (Ironically, those same reasons made me fall in love with it a couple years later. This is almost entirely a new band, but it still sounds pretty much like the GNR of my youth)

But even then, the one song that stood out and that I loved right off the bat, was the track "Better". Listen here:

Guns N' Roses better with lyrics - YouTube

Like the rest of the album, it still sounded like the GNR or old, but it was also new. It had some NuMetal elements to it, so I instantly loved it. But those elements were subtle enough that it was still GNR.

There were a couple other tracks that had more modern elements, industrial elements, namely the title track and Shacklers Revenge, but they didn't stand out to me like Better did. Great song. It's still my favorite. If you're only going to give one song a chance, try this one.

[Supersonic]

Aloha !

Originally Posted by Raz0r

Hey Dave, glad you enjoy CD too, and good points. I agree and disagree. I agree that UYI is more bluesy and fluid, and that CD has industrial elements and is more choppy. Still, I think the similarities to the illusions are strong. Specifically the tracks, This I Love, There Was A Time, If The World, IRS, and Catcher in the Rye, remind me a lot of the epic power ballads on the illusions, like Locomotive, Estranged, November Rain, and Coma.

The difference with UYI is that UYI, despite the albums being overly long, sometimes cringeworthy, and sometimes just more of the same, is that it's the sound of a large group of people bringing in individual ideas knowing how to complement eachother. They'd been together with eachother for so long, had been rehearsing new stuff for so long, that they knew what to add to a song to make it work. Although 1/3 of UYI sounds very dated or borderline ridiculous (Back off Bitch, Get In The Ring...) there's still 2/3 that's showcasing how 5 ****ed up individuals could complement eachother so well.

Chinese Democracy has none of that. It's the sound of what one man thought Guns n' Roses should sound like, yet it doesn't sound anything like GnR. GnR was sloppy, had influences of punk and bluesrock and had signature sounds. Chinese Democracy doesn't have any of that. Not even Axl sounds like Axl, and that's why most people didn't give the album a chance. There's nothing on there that sounds like anything they'd known before, but there's nothing that sounds like anything they'd liked before either.

Whether that's fair I don't know, but I'd become a fan of GnR long before the album came out, followed Axl's every move and expected something good to come out of the man who was at the helm of November Rain and Estranged. There were times in my life when I pretty much listened to nothing but Use Your Illusion I and II. Surely Axl knew what he was doing?

And then Rock in Rio happened in 2001, and my hopes were pretty much gone. Madagascar, Oh My God, The Blues, Chinese Democracy, all songs that did nothing to me. All songs that clearly suffered from the lack of Izzy. The lack of a real band. Once the album did come out it pretty much lived up to my expectations. I still remember fans saying "He's held on to the big ones, the big ones haven't been played yet". And then there was This I Love, featuring the most ridiculous poetry Axl's ever come up with. And Sorry, a poor attempt at ridiculing Slash, about 20 years late. There were no true big ones. There was just really a mix up all kinds of ideas that never really seemed to fall into place, which in the end was exactly what I'd come to expect.

On top of that, the production seriously screws up the sound of the album as well. There's Axl who sounds horrible, the very poor tone of the guitars and drums, a non existing bass player and then there's the zillions of layers of keyboards, additional guitars and what not that all doesn't add anything to the songs. I really like Better, I like Madagascar and I like pieces of TWAT, but I like it because it's one of the rare moments were all the pieces fall together and seem to showcase what Axl's vision was. I never, ever thought it sounded like GnR though. And as for the rest of the album? Meh...

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

[Raz0r]

Originally Posted by Supersonic

Aloha !



The difference with UYI is that UYI, despite the albums being overly long, sometimes cringeworthy, and sometimes just more of the same, is that it's the sound of a large group of people bringing in individual ideas knowing how to complement eachother. They'd been together with eachother for so long, had been rehearsing new stuff for so long, that they knew what to add to a song to make it work. Although 1/3 of UYI sounds very dated or borderline ridiculous (Back off Bitch, Get In The Ring...) there's still 2/3 that's showcasing how 5 ****ed up individuals could complement eachother so well.

Chinese Democracy has none of that. It's the sound of what one man thought Guns n' Roses should sound like, yet it doesn't sound anything like GnR. GnR was sloppy, had influences of punk and bluesrock and had signature sounds. Chinese Democracy doesn't have any of that. Not even Axl sounds like Axl, and that's why most people didn't give the album a chance. There's nothing on there that sounds like anything they'd known before, but there's nothing that sounds like anything they'd liked before either.

Whether that's fair I don't know, but I'd become a fan of GnR long before the album came out, followed Axl's every move and expected something good to come out of the man who was at the helm of November Rain and Estranged. There were times in my life when I pretty much listened to nothing but Use Your Illusion I and II. Surely Axl knew what he was doing?

And then Rock in Rio happened in 2001, and my hopes were pretty much gone. Madagascar, Oh My God, The Blues, Chinese Democracy, all songs that did nothing to me. All songs that clearly suffered from the lack of Izzy. The lack of a real band. Once the album did come out it pretty much lived up to my expectations. I still remember fans saying "He's held on to the big ones, the big ones haven't been played yet". And then there was This I Love, featuring the most ridiculous poetry Axl's ever come up with. And Sorry, a poor attempt at ridiculing Slash, about 20 years late. There were no true big ones. There was just really a mix up all kinds of ideas that never really seemed to fall into place, which in the end was exactly what I'd come to expect.

On top of that, the production seriously screws up the sound of the album as well. There's Axl who sounds horrible, the very poor tone of the guitars and drums, a non existing bass player and then there's the zillions of layers of keyboards, additional guitars and what not that all doesn't add anything to the songs. I really like Better, I like Madagascar and I like pieces of TWAT, but I like it because it's one of the rare moments were all the pieces fall together and seem to showcase what Axl's vision was. I never, ever thought it sounded like GnR though. And as for the rest of the album? Meh...

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

I see what you’re saying, there are bluesy and punkish songs on the UTI’s, especially on UYI 1, and Chinese Democracy is nothing like that. But “This I Love” is a piano ballad like “November Rain”, and “There Was A Time” is an epic ballad that reminds me a lot of “Estranged”. I listen to songs like This I Love, There Was A Time, IRS, Catcher in the Rye, and they very much sound like GNR to me. Like I said in a previous post, my first impression of the album, after getting past the first 3 tracks that had an Industrial and NuMetal influence, my first impression of the rest of that album was how it could have been called UYI3, because a lot of those ballads could have fit right in with UYI2.

I mean there are a lot of reasons not to give Chinese Democracy a chance, it was so expensive, it took so long to put out, so many hands touched it, it’s not your favorite line up of the band… Rock In Rio!.. my god that show was horrible. But if you can put those things aside and listen to it unbiased, tall order I know, it’s a really good rock album. And it’s a really good GNR album. I mean, I rank my favorite GNR albums as, UYI2, Appetite for Destruction, Chinese Democracy, UYI 1, Lies, and the Spaghetti Incident. And maybe that’s why I like Chi Dem so much… of the albums with the classic line-up, my favorite is UY2, and that’s the one that Chi Dem is most similar too.

And let me ask you this, what is a GNR album supposed to sound like? UYI1 and Lies, sound very different than Appetite for Destruction did, UYI2 different than all three. But they’re all GNR right?

And I actually like the lyrics for This I Love, there are a couple of powerful lines in that song. Like “There's no one else Could ever make me feel I'm so alive” and “I've searched the universe And found myself Within her eyes”, those are awesome turn of phrase IMO. And powerful. I romantically whispered those words to my girlfriend, now wife, back in the day, and she was putty in my hands. And there’s great lines like that all over this album. How about the lyrics to “Catcher in the Rye” a tribute to John Lennon that gets in the mind of his killer…


“On an ordinary day
Not in an ordinary way
All at once the song I heard
No longer would it play
For anybody
Or anyone
That needed comfort from somebody
Needed comfort from someone
Who cared
To be
Not like you
And unlike me

And then the voices went away from me
Somehow you set the wheels in motion
That haunt our memories
You were the instrument
You were the one
How a body
Took a body
You gave that boy a gun

You took our innocence
Behind our stares
Sometimes the only thing
We counted on
When no one else was there”

I agree the production is too much, the album would have benefited from more space , I agree with you there. But I still liked it. I liked most of the lyrics, and I loved the guitar solos. And I’m a Slash fan, but Axl brought on some awesome guitarists to replace him, and I liked what they did. And yes, it might be fair to say it’s just one man’s vision of what GNR should be, but that man is Axl Rose. Not only was Axl a major part of what made GNR awesome, but as Duff said in his biography, Axl is the single most punk rock, and most metal, person he’s ever met. Without trying to be, he just embodies it, he IS rock n’ roll. A lot of fans dislike him because they blame him for the breakup, or they think he’s an asshole, or they think he’s crazy… but it’s all that about him that made him awesome. That still makes him awesome, and it makes Chinese Democracy awesome. IMHO. 

[Supersonic]

Aloha !

Originally Posted by Raz0r

I see what you’re saying, there are bluesy and punkish songs on the UTI’s, especially on UYI 1, and Chinese Democracy is nothing like that. But “This I Love” is a piano ballad like “November Rain”, and “There Was A Time” is an epic ballad that reminds me a lot of “Estranged”. I listen to songs like This I Love, There Was A Time, IRS, Catcher in the Rye, and they very much sound like GNR to me.

I very much disagree with this. This I Love is nothing like November Rain. November Rain has a haunting, melodramatic feeling over it, it's got a feeling pretty much everyone understood when it was released. Then there's all the signature sounds in it, the orchestration, the little drum fills, and obviously Slash dominating the song. Compare this to This I Love, which is pretty much a poem read on some mediocre instrumentation.

I also don't understand why and how There Was A Time reminds you of Estranged. Estranged, another song with no real structure, yet everything seems to fall together and is blend together by an actual band working together. And then there's TWAT, a song with pretty much the verse chorus verse chorus structure and then a heavy outro attached to it. I like the song, and feel it's as close as Axl could come to something sounding like Guns N' Roses. But in the end, it's not Guns N' Roses, it's his project, and very much sounds like a solo artist doing his thing.

Like I said in a previous post, my first impression of the album, after getting past the first 3 tracks that had an Industrial and NuMetal influence, my first impression of the rest of that album was how it could have been called UYI3, because a lot of those ballads could have fit right in with UYI2.

Nope, don't see it. There's absolutely no Blues on Chinese Democracy. It rarely sounds like classic rock, or even hard rock. It's very keyboard heavy, put together with samples and sounds of various songs and instruments. It's the direct opposite of how Use Your Illusion and Appetite was put together, and it's why it never sounds like anything Guns N' Roses had recorded. And the ballads are of such a disappointing level that I think when Axl would've brought them on the table Duff and Slash would have walked away laughing.

And let me ask you this, what is a GNR album supposed to sound like? UYI1 and Lies, sound very different than Appetite for Destruction did, UYI2 different than all three. But they’re all GNR right?

I think it's fair to say that everyone knows what a Guns N' Roses album is supposed to sound like considering how pretty much everyone knows Chinese Democracy doesn't sound like Guns N' Roses. It's the 5 individuals of the Appetite era working together and bringing in their influences and musical tastes. Chinese Democracy is Axl bringing in all kind of influences he likes, hoping to recapture a feeling that was a happening, a certain thing that can't be replicated unless these guys work together. And then there's Slash. Without Slash, it's no Guns N' Roses. Anything Slash is playing on since he departed from Guns N' Roses, sounds more like any of the songs on Chinese Democracy.

And I actually like the lyrics for This I Love, there are a couple of powerful lines in that song. Like “There's no one else Could ever make me feel I'm so alive” and “I've searched the universe And found myself Within her eyes”, those are awesome turn of phrase IMO. And powerful. I romantically whispered those words to my girlfriend, now wife, back in the day, and she was putty in my hands. And there’s great lines like that all over this album. How about the lyrics to “Catcher in the Rye” a tribute to John Lennon that gets in the mind of his killer…

Yeah...Frankly, when I write, these kind of lyrics are the ones I avoid like the plague. They're so cliché ridden and so very blunt that I feel they're ridiculous. Don't get me wrong, I wrote some cringe-worthy lyrics, but I wrote them when my English wasn't what it was today, and when I was 20 and had just started writing songs. By now, I've written plenty of better lyrics than the ones you cited. I never understood how someone who wrote that entire outro of Coma could come up with stuff like "I've searched the world and found myself within her eyes". I laugh at that, I really do. It's on the same level of lyrics Bryan Adams would write, delivering it on a sappy acoustic guitar. But while Bryan Adams is often capable of getting away with them, Axl sounds ridiculous.

I agree the production is too much, the album would have benefited from more space , I agree with you there. But I still liked it. I liked most of the lyrics, and I loved the guitar solos. And I’m a Slash fan, but Axl brought on some awesome guitarists to replace him, and I liked what they did.

Yes, the guitarists are technically far advanced compared to Slash. But really, is there any memorable solo or riff on the album? Any? It's once again a testament as to how important Slash was and is to the sound of Guns N' Roses. It's why the album's so bland as well. No standout riffs or licks on there. None. And that's with about 50 guitarists who worked on it.

And yes, it might be fair to say it’s just one man’s vision of what GNR should be, but that man is Axl Rose. Not only was Axl a major part of what made GNR awesome, but as Duff said in his biography, Axl is the single most punk rock, and most metal, person he’s ever met. Without trying to be, he just embodies it, he IS rock n’ roll. A lot of fans dislike him because they blame him for the breakup, or they think he’s an asshole, or they think he’s crazy… but it’s all that about him that made him awesome. That still makes him awesome, and it makes Chinese Democracy awesome. IMHO.

I think Axl's pretty much a has-been. A talented guy who had it all, and then threw it all away because his ego got too big for his boots. There's no question in my mind that Axl's responsible for the breakup. Even to this day Axl is the one who gets in the way of releasing music, showing up on time, delivering all night long. And as far as saying Axl was so important to Guns N' Roses...Meh. I've seen Velvet Revolver, Loaded and Slash's solo act. They all embody what Guns N Roses was a lot more than Axl's current version of it. And with the current state of Axl's vocals, he's pretty much become as disposable as any of the other hired guns. There's nothing rock & roll about that. Sure, it's what made him dangerous and exciting in the early nineties, but this kind of behavior, including Axl Rose and Guns N' Roses, is a thing of the past.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

[Raz0r]

Supersonic - OK, you don't think Chinese Democracy sounds anything like Guns N Roses or the UYI2 album. I disagree, I think the similarities are quite striking. Fair enough, we disagree. Though, judging by the rest of your post, it seems your opinion is based more on a dislike of Axl Rose and/or a dissatisfaction that former members weren't in on the album, rather than it being based on the music itself.

I hope others who read this will give the album more of a chance, and let the content of the album speak for itself.

I also want to address the position that this sounds like an Axl Rose solo project because you are the second poster that has said that now. If you look at the writing credits on the album, you'll find several members of the band co-wrote most songs. Three of the people that helped create those songs are still in the band, Dizzy Reed, Chris Pitman, and Tommy Stinson. Only one song was written by just Axl, This I Love, which he called a sequel to the song Estranged.

[Supersonic]

Aloha !

Originally Posted by Raz0r

Though, judging by the rest of your post, it seems your opinion is based more on a dislike of Axl Rose and/or a dissatisfaction that former members weren't in on the album, rather than it being based on the music itself.

My opinion is not based upon my dislike of Axl Rose. Yeah, much like everybody else, I've always felt the guy was a bit of an idiot. A confused individual who, thanks to his horrible past, was capable of putting his emotions into songs, whether they were angry, sad or frustrated songs. I won't deny that the guy is talented, nor that he doesn't have a vision, but due to him abandoning the steady surrounding he had, and involving himself with The Beta and other folks, he's pretty much lost it.

And as for former musicians not being on the album; The quality of Chinese Democracy has all to do with the original members no longer being involved. If you like the album that's fine, but it just doesn't have much to do with Guns N' Roses. It'd be like saying Destination Anywhere is a Bon Jovi record, because it sounds a bit like These Days.

I hope others who read this will give the album more of a chance, and let the content of the album speak for itself.

See, I don't get this. For some reason, people who love Chinese Democracy need an excuse as to why people didn't like the record. Why can't it just be the simple fact that most Guns N' Roses fans flat out didn't like it?

I did let the album speak for itself. I don't know about you, but I'd been following the entire Chinese Democracy saga pretty much from the moment Oh My God was released. And Oh My God by itself was a good indication as to how different the follow up to Use Your Illusions would be. But once those songs at Rio were played I just knew the album wouldn't be my cup of tea.

And it's not because it isn't classic rock, because in the end a good song is a good song. It's because it's a poor attempt at wanting to be Trent Reznor. Wanting to be industrial rock, and wanting to mix Guns N' Roses classic rock sound with the industrial rock influences of the nineties. Yet only half of it succeeds, the other half is just Axl Rose wallowing in his own bittersweet memories and acting butthurt over his own actions. That's really what Chinese Democracy sounds like. I gave it a chance, but once the album did come out it pretty much confirmed the expectations I had once he'd started premiering the songs 7 years before its release.

I also want to address the position that this sounds like an Axl Rose solo project because you are the second poster that has said that now. If you look at the writing credits on the album, you'll find several members of the band co-wrote most songs. Three of the people that helped create those songs are still in the band, Dizzy Reed, Chris Pitman, and Tommy Stinson. Only one song was written by just Axl, This I Love, which he called a sequel to the song Estranged.

Yet it's still a solo record. I don't understand why people pretend like it's an actual band that worked on this album. It was Axl who pretty much bullied everyone out of the band, and it was Axl who build another band around him that lived up to his standards. And once certain people were either no longer needed, or just gave up, they were fired or just left. Josh Freeze, Paul Tobias, Buckethead, Bryan Mantia, all co-writers of several songs, yet all gone. If this would've been recorded by a specific band, the album would've been recorded with the same bunch of people.

Do you honestly believe that Pitman came up to Axl saying "Well I wrote this stuff yesterday, you gotta write some lyrics to it and we're off". It's never worked that way, all songs are build around several ideas coming from several different people that would fit Axl's vision. Some ideas originated from the 1998 sessions, and some originated from the 2002 sessions. They're not the vision of Tommy Stinson. Not the vision of Dizzy Reed, not the vision of those all those musicians involved with Chinese Democracy. It's all Axl's vision, despite what he initially wanted everyone else to believe. And I would've loved for Axl to get his shit together and deliver classic after classic. To prove everyone wrong. But he didn't. He was given all the money and time in the world, yet came up with an album that really no one but a select few seemed to like. Yes, it got a few good reviews, but response was overly negative. Not because all the drama involved, but because the songs just weren't there.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

[life_of_agony]

I actually really dig the album. Did it live up to expectations? Hell no, it never could have. Is it on par with "Appetite"? Nah, not even close. Why am I asking myself questions and then answering them? Beer.
But it is an album I keep going back to. Some great tracks. I really believe this would have been critically acclaimed had it not cost 80 bazillion dollars to make and taken a million years to record.

In saying all of this though, it is absolutely an Axl Rose solo album and I would kill to see the original line up record a new album, not that it will ever happen.

[Walleris]

Originally Posted by life_of_agony

I actually really dig the album. Did it live up to expectations? Hell no, it never could have. Is it on par with "Appetite"? Nah, not even close. Why am I asking myself questions and then answering them? Beer.
But it is an album I keep going back to. Some great tracks. I really believe this would have been critically acclaimed had it not cost 80 bazillion dollars to make and taken a million years to record.

In saying all of this though, it is absolutely an Axl Rose solo album and I would kill to see the original line up record a new album, not that it will ever happen.

That's pretty much how I feel as well.

It IS Axl's solo album and would've been very well received if it was billed as such ("long-awaited first solo album by legendary Axl Rose brings his first music since the break up of Guns N' Roses" and bla bla). But obviously, from an album perspective, keeping GN'R name is a PR nightmare. On the other hand, that definitely sells a lot more concert tickets, so who knows which type of success Axl and his boys would prefer.

Having nothing to do with the GNR that we all know and love, it's a great album nonetheless and will forever be underappreciated by most due to the circumstances.