[Track7]

Hello,

Been away from these forums for a while, but listening to bounce latley has got me thinking and decided to post some thoughts on here.

I've read people thoughts on Bounce's production and many people say the dislike the use of drum computers etc (which i'll come to in a minute but they are drum loops) however I dont feel this is the real gripe with the sound cause well crush was littered with modern production techniques/samples/loops. I think it is the mastering.

For those that dont know "Mastering" is the procdure that happens after the album has been recorded and mixed (all the volumes of instruments balanced and effected etc).

It basically involves taking the final tracks and polishing them to sound clear and professional, making them sound similar if they have been recorded by different engineers in different studio's and if they have had different producers and mixers.

It also involves editing the beginings and endings and compiling all the tracks together.

But the most important thing in commericial mastering latley is the use of Normalization and Maximizing the VOLUME of the record. Have you ever noticed that home made cd's or demo's of your own musical recording sound a LOT quiter than professional CD's. Well this is due to Mastering and the specific process called Normalization.

What it does is raises the maximum volume of the track to 0 dB the loudest it can be, and so every other part of the track is raised too relativley.

Now the current fashion/trend is to make your CD louder and louder and louder than everbody elses. The record companies are especially after this because they think louder = better, therefore more easily noticed on radio. (i know it sounds stupid but this really is the sad reason) The big problem though is that you CANT normalize past 0 dB because if you do then you get NASTY digital distortion that sounds terrible. On old recording systems that were analogue you could get away with pushing the volume up into analogue distortion because it was a desired warm sound. However now with everything being digital distortion is a big big no no.

So how do they get around this problem? They need it louder to compete on radio, but without sounded like a Nail Gun on corragted steel. Well their is another process called compression, limiting and maximization. What this does is make those loud parts of the record quieter and the quiet parts louder. This can then ALL be whacked up to 0dB making the whole thing percieved as louder.

Now this should be great, but we lose something very importatnt in this process, its called dynamics!!! We lose a lot of the clarity and detail and dynamics...all the stuff that digital recording was supposed to bring to the table as benefits.

This is the first problem with Bounce. The dynamics are very narrow. You get what are supposed to be loud hard rocking sections right next to soft quiet sections that are virtually the same volume. Therefore the music isn't as powerful or engaging. No matter how well written it is.

Next, to make matters worse. There is another technique, well its actually a software plug-in called an ultra-maximizer (lol i know it sounds like i'm making it up but its real honest).

This device (well its buklt into hardware too but my experience is with the software plug-ins) compresses the sound further and raises the volume even more overall and applies limiting (chopping off sound where its about to become that nasty digital distortion) where it is going to disrtort. This is another way of making it louder. And it is this which is the worst crime with bounce.

The whole record sounds very grainy and at times has been pushed too too far close to digitally distorting. I know the guitars are supposed to sound heavy, but that is real normal distortion - on top of this they sound like they are "bleeding" out of the speakers at times. The drums are soo compressed that the tom tom drums sound really flat and have no power.

The worst examples are in Hook Me Up (which makes me cry cause its a great song i think), Love me back to Life (again sad because one of my favs on the record) esp 3 mins in where Jon screams (i know i know his voice aint what it used to be for doing the high screams thats another issue) the very dry use off effects (no reverb or delay) makes it so harsh to listen to.

I feel that bounce has the potential to be another fantastic album like KTF and TD. I was very excited before it came out. However I know see it as quite a commercial attempt that has been ruined by the produciton and mastering. I actually cant listen to it all the way throuhg in one sitting because it gives me an awful headache (and not because its heavy i listen to a lot of metal albums all the way through) from the near digital distortion.

In essense the songs had potential, but I think musically and technically they were watered down for some reason, perhaps commercially. I think to how the ideas could be developed and its sad because Undivided, Everyday, The Distance, Hook Me Up, Love Me Back To Life, and Bounce could all have been fantastic rockers if they hadn't been holding back. You only have to look at the average track length of Bounce to say KTF or TD and its obvious. Bounce track lenghts are around 3 mins 30 KTF was much closer to 5 mins. But i digress.

Volume wise These Days is very loud but suffers none of the issues that bounce has technically. Perhaps until this insessent craze for uber-volume dies down in the industry they should go back to analgoue recording and mastering. KTF and TD were certainly better albums (along with the integrity of the writing) for it.

Anyway just some thoughts and information for people who might hate the sound of bounce or find it hard to listen to and didn't know why. Sorry if it was very boring or long, just had to get this off my chest!

Track

[ponrauil]

Thanks for that, very instructive.

Ponrauil

[Thierry]

I second that, but who cares?

[ponrauil]

Originally Posted by Thierry

I second that, but who cares?

Well I never really took mastering into account when listening. Maybe it can explain some things I don't like about Bounce without really knowing what it is.

Ponrauil

[RichieW2001]

the mastering on TLFR is also dreadful. sure, there are too many levels but the inconsistencies in volume really nag at your head after a while. i still think, however, that even if KTF, NJ or TD had been mastered as badly as bounce, they'd still be great albums.

production and mastering is only part of it, good songwriting accounts for the majority.

[Iceman]

You missed a few points. First of all, radios compress all their stuff themselves, at the time they air it. So there really is no need for records to be compressed to be louder for the radio. Records are being compressed much for the same reason they're being mastered. To make the songs sound similar, to get the "album" - feel. Compression doesn't take that much away from dynamic, the compression is usually too small for normal people to even notice.

As for drum loops, they can just as well be called drum computers. Loops are usually made from synthetized sounds, rarely pre-recorded acoustic sounds and are always construced on a computer, which also plays them back. So, no need for nitpicking there.

And after being in the business for as long as Bon Jovi have, I doubt that they would **** up mastering or compressing the way you describe. Sounds more like you had too much time on your hands...

Ice

[Supersonic]

Aloha !

So there really is no need for records to be compressed to be louder for the radio.

They've made radio versions for IML and Everyday which sounded harder as the radio versions. He's got a point in that Ice. I just do not know how to describe my theory in English but he's got a point in that I think.

As for drum loops, they can just as well be called drum computers. Loops are usually made from synthetized sounds, rarely pre-recorded acoustic sounds and are always construced on a computer, which also plays them back. So, no need for nitpicking there.

I agree about that.

And after being in the business for as long as Bon Jovi have, I doubt that they would **** up mastering or compressing the way you describe.

I don't think that's entirely true. They do **** up their mastering and or compressing a bit. His theory has got a few good points there too. The example he gives about HMU is good I think.

However, if Faith would've had the same mastering as Bounce, it still would've been a great album. It's about the songs, the melodies. Not about the mastering. Joey wouldn't have been a better track if it would've been mixed the same way as Faith.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

[RichieW2001]

Originally Posted by Supersonic

However, if Faith would've had the same mastering as Bounce, it still would've been a great album. It's about the songs, the melodies. Not about the mastering. Joey wouldn't have been a better track if it would've been mixed the same way as Faith.

Aloha!

i just said that.

Salaam Aleikum,
Richie

[Track7]

Hey, looks like a few people care after all.

Iceman, you're correct on the radio issue yes they again compress it big time for that, and this only adds futher to the problem. But the other point about them making it louder for radio still stands true. Any prodcuer, engineer will tell you also that the more you compress it the more dynamic range you lose. If you are still in dissagreement with this i recommend check out some of these forums


http://sound-on-sound2.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic

http://homerecording.com/bbs/index.p...c1c271ebbaa797

there are many threads about the issue amongst those that confirm this. As to whterh most people can or can't tell, well that is subjective. However many people "know" what sounds good and bad regardless of whether they can explain why or not. I will see if I can find out a specific article I was reading about this issue (the record in question was Rush Vaour Trails album being way too loud) to further back this up.

Now drum computers! LoL i forgot to come backto that in my long essay of a post earlier. Thanks for reminding me. Infact iceman, you're right in the sense that i'm nitpicking about name Drum Loops/Computers whatever but INFACT...i contest heavily that pre-recorded acoustic sounds are not used. Infact in this sort of commercial pop rock genre it is the opposite which is true. Synthesized sounds are not often used for loop creation.

For example: It's My Life, i think we all agree uses quite a hefty blend of "Real" drums and "Loops/Drum Computers". Now what they have done it used loops of real acoustic drums and effected / choped up / processed / and reversed them to make some sound quite electronic and modern. Made a loop of this and then blended it with the real Tico drum track.

Again this is a very common technique now for fattening up rhythm tracks in the pop/rock world. Check out those forums again to find examples of this. I do this myself when producing this kind of music.

What you're talking about with Synthesizd rhythm loops is something more electronic based like Radiohead late albums, and Aphex Twin. Radioheads track "The Gloaming" off of Hail To the Theif album uses electronic beeps and squelch noises in place of drums for its rhythm track.

However computers are used in both techniques but the term drum computer implies the creation of sound from a computer which in Bon Jovi's case isn't the norm. Processed Loops is more appropriate. But yea i'm nitpicking.

Being in the business for the length that they have has nothing to do with messing their sound up or not. I imagine that to comeback after These Days like they did they probably had to comprise an awful lot with the record company (rhich even refers to this in the crush dvd interviews where he talkd about people researching if BJ is still relevent aorund the world before they made crush) for them to give them the kind of promotion and backing they had for the comeback.

Sure they could have made an album with their own money and released it on their own. But not to the extent that they did iwth crush. Because lets face it not even multi-millionaires like BJ want to sink multi-millions into an album project that might fail. And to launch and promote an album takes multiples of moolah, which without the rec. company backing them would eat into the wallets. So i reckon there was some comprimise all round - even if the guys did have an opionin on the mastering etc. Lets face it I think we'd all agre the sound of the records were better when Bob Rock was at the boards - even if he did screw up metallica's career! he he

And yes I agree with everyone about it being the songs not the production that makes the album. Faith had better songs simple as that I agree. However i was just pointing out things which bounce didn't have going for it aside from the songs, and why it can be a pain to listen to.

Although I stand firm on that the songs themselves had potential, and again comprimises were made.

And about me having too much time on my hands? Not likley. This is all relevent to life. Creating music is my profession and I when I'm not listening ot the music I'm listening analysing the production etc. I get paid for it

Thanks for the interest glad some people are getting something from it.

Track

[RichieW2001]

and thanks for taking the time to post. all ice will do is rip apart what you've just said again. he is the all-singing, all-dancing, all-knowing, all-seeing eye.