[JackieBlue]

Originally Posted by Becky

For David to have "taken over " the "leadership role" Richie had in the band, there would have to be leadership responsibilities to take over...

As I said, you'll have to take that up with Jon. He's the one who said it.

Originally Posted by Becky

... I'm don't commit exact quotes to memory (or dig them up a year later), but The Circle was celebrated at the time by those involved as the most "Jon And Richie" album in decades...

Even Richie has said he is not as much of a voice in the writing as Jon because Jon is the one singing the songs. Richie himself has said that they have to be from Jon's POV...

I don't mind looking stuff up because 1) it's really not that difficult with Google, and 2) I'd much rather deal with actual facts and statements than to spout stuff off the top of my head, which might reflect what I'd prefer to remember more than what was actually said. My memory is far less reliable than it used to be.

To my knowledge, Richie never said he isn't as much of a voice in the writing as Jon is. He said that when he writes for Bon Jovi he has to stay with things that Jon can sell because Jon is the voice of the band.

Originally Posted by Becky

...Look at his own style of record making. He has literally been working on something for years with stuff "coming soon." If he doesn't have driven people like Jon and John surrounding him, he doesn't complete stuff. You know, lile that country tinged album he was going to release with the likes of Kenny Chesney and Jo D. Messina....

I don't know what's up with this album. But my gut says there's more to that story than meets the eye, as well, because for some reason, I seem to remember that Richie managed to get out 3 different albums, all while on breaks from his day job, and despite the fact that, with at least 2 of them, he was being rushed back into the studio to work on the next Bon Jovi album. So I'm not sure it's fair to say that he doesn't complete stuff.

As for the country thing he said he might do, lots of people have ideas about things they would like to do, or plan to do "when they get around to it". Things don't always work out just like you plan for them to. Life happens. You know, kinda like that 3rd solo album the "driven one" said he was planning to do except it turned into a band album that rushed everybody back into the studio before their break was over.

Originally Posted by Becky

I agree with Matt that anything denying drugs as a problem was a cover up. For goodness sake, so many people who have seen him solo since talk about what a mess he is. The few clips I have watched have ranged from pathetic to embarrassing.

I don't think anyone has tried to deny that Richie's substance abuse has been a problem or that, as with most addicts it's an ongoing struggle for him. But, based on comments made during 2013, it seems that substance abuse was not the primary factor behind him leaving or why he didn't return.

You and Matt could both be right. Jon could have been trying to protect Richie, or his privacy, by covering up. Except that he made the statement after he had already implied that alcohol was the problem, and Richie said that Jon needed to stop trash-talking him in public. In one of the following interviews, a reporter called Jon on it, by asking the question directly. And that's when he denied it.

At any rate, I believe the subject that was under discussion when I joined the conversation, was Eveline's question about what happened to damage something that was working so well. I took that to mean the "magic" the band once had, which she referred to in a previous post, not what Richie's issues are now or how pathetic or embarrassing you may think his performances have been.

But when that's all you've got, I guess you just have to run with it.

[JackieBlue]

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

On the flip side Jon saying Richie wasn't having alcohol problems could have been covering up for his issues in a "it's not my thing to reveal" way. To say it's not booze and drugs and then have multiple members saying it further down the line....I can't see them all putting stuff into the press about Richie's problems if he didn't have them. Richie could have easily gone after them for slander. There are people formerly in his camp that have agreed that he still has a drinking problem, its not that far fetched to think maybe it had something to do with his decision.

I responded to why Jon may have denied it and agreed that it is probably an ongoing struggle in my previous post, so I won't repeat all that here.

My point is that, while we know there's an addiction issue, I just don't think we can pin the blame on that one thing for everything that happened in 2013, or for everything that's wrong with the band, or for everything that's wrong with the world today like people try to do sometimes.

(Not really. It seems Trump is going to be the new scapegoat for everything that's wrong with the world today, so Richie, even with all of his flaws, might be able to catch a break on that one.)

As for other members reiterating his addiction as the problem, I honestly believe that they're going to say what they're told to say, for the most part. They still work for the machine and handling the press is part of the job, so you stick with the agreed upon party-line.

I'm not saying they're doing it to hurt Richie or his reputation. But because his addiction issues are well-known, it seems to me that that's become the easy or go-to excuse for everything, especially when people (band and fans) would rather ignore that other things probably played into it as well. Much like the smokescreen about Ava, there's undeniable truth and it's already a known fact, so go ahead and put that out there. Then you won't have to bring other reasons, perhaps more significant reasons, out of the shadows and face them - or deal with any collateral damage they might cause.

Right or wrong, my personal bullshit barometer tends to react less to things the band (and Richie) repeat over and over, almost verbatim, because that's obviously planned press patter. The alerts start going off over the one-time comments, when they may have been caught off-guard or got carried away. Those are the comments that are typically edited out of the next spiel, because somebody realizes that it could open a can of worms or they see negative feedback from fans. My guess is that those comments are where you get a glimpse at what the real story might be.

[Becky]

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

I don't mind looking stuff up because 1) it's really not that difficult with Google, and 2) I'd much rather deal with actual facts and statements than to spout stuff off the top of my head, which might reflect what I'd prefer to remember more than what was actually said. My memory is far less reliable than it used to be.

it.

I am not paying any less attention than you, I just process differently than you. I went through high school, college, and graduate school by writing many, many papers for which plagiarism would get you failing grade. Therefore, I read or listen for meaning. I don't listen for the verbiage so that I can spout it back. Also, as a psychologist, I am trained to look for what may be behind the words which may be more than the words of themselves would indicate. I'm not saying my way is better than yours or your way is worse than mine but we see things differently. Obviously. Ha ha!

As I said before, I am content with the way things are. I plan to move forward with Bon Jovi as they move forward. I don't have to look back and ask why. I've been a fan of this band for about 30 years. I have a pretty good grasp of who these guys are based on countless audio and video interviews with each of them. I've been around long enough and seen and heard enough through the years, that I am comfortable with how I see these guys as individuals and as a band. All the while, keeping in mind but everyone wears a mask in public, not just celebrities. Still, when it comes to research, I've done the work. I've been there all these years. Yet, I would never get the name of any of these bandmembers tattooed on my body because you never know what is in somebody's closet. I'm one of those people who thought Bill Cosby was a beacon of integrity for a long time, only paying attention to him in passing.

I don't support what any one of them says or does 100%. But, I do tend to look at the big picture. That big picture includes that Dave, Tico, and Hugh all have remained with Jon. 2013 would have been the time to call it quits if there were any issues between those four people. If they are happy now, so am I.

[Eveline]

Interesting... so some people try to imply that Richie's alcoholism/drug use is the core of all evil and the last straw. Funny thing is that while being this HEAVY and hopeless drunk he did his job pretty well, even though he'd been accused of being sloppy here and there.

Another thing is what Becky said. I don't think the history repeats itself in this case. With the first split, the whole band was burnt out and sick and tired of constant touring. Now the fact that the guys stayed with Jon doesn't mean anything. No one is right or wrong 100% and to me it's a personal thing between Jon and Richie, not the whole band. They wanted to continue and I don't think Rich finds them disloyal or wants them to choose between anybody to prove their friendship and commitment.

So Richie officially quit, Jon oficially moved on. Guys, I'm impressed with your knowledge on different little details but sticking around for years speaks for itself. We won't get to know the whole truth or a revealing 'tell-all' memoir anytime soon or ever. One thing is for sure: the answer isn't simple or simplified. The answer doesn't lie in just one reason, whatever's comfortable or believable enough at a given time.

[Captain_jovi]

Originally Posted by Eveline

Interesting... so some people try to imply that Richie's alcoholism/drug use is the core of all evil and the last straw. Funny thing is that while being this HEAVY and hopeless drunk he did his job pretty well, even though he'd been accused of being sloppy here and there.
.

But we're not. We're saying that people are swearing up and down he's not drinking or on drugs and it had nothing to do with him splitting but the band said otherwise after originally saying it had nothing to do with it. You're right though, we'll never know the truth but something is going on with him.

[JackieBlue]

Originally Posted by Becky

I am not paying any less attention than you, I just process differently than you. I went through high school, college, and graduate school by writing many, many papers for which plagiarism would get you failing grade. Therefore, I read or listen for meaning. I don't listen for the verbiage so that I can spout it back. Also, as a psychologist, I am trained to look for what may be behind the words which may be more than the words of themselves would indicate. I'm not saying my way is better than yours or your way is worse than mine but we see things differently. Obviously. Ha ha!

As I said before, I am content with the way things are. I plan to move forward with Bon Jovi as they move forward. I don't have to look back and ask why. I've been a fan of this band for about 30 years. I have a pretty good grasp of who these guys are based on countless audio and video interviews with each of them. I've been around long enough and seen and heard enough through the years, that I am comfortable with how I see these guys as individuals and as a band. All the while, keeping in mind but everyone wears a mask in public, not just celebrities. Still, when it comes to research, I've done the work. I've been there all these years. Yet, I would never get the name of any of these bandmembers tattooed on my body because you never know what is in somebody's closet. I'm one of those people who thought Bill Cosby was a beacon of integrity for a long time, only paying attention to him in passing.

I don't support what any one of them says or does 100%. But, I do tend to look at the big picture. That big picture includes that Dave, Tico, and Hugh all have remained with Jon. 2013 would have been the time to call it quits if there were any issues between those four people. If they are happy now, so am I.

I don't see anything in what you said that would indicate that we process differently at all. In fact, most of the trouble I get into is because I tend to read and listen for meaning and find the truths behind the words. See my response to Matt. (Our guy, not the other one!)

I've said before that you and I seem to think about things, and process them, much the same way; and we'd make an unstoppable team if we ever put our heads together. The only difference I see is in our perspectives, which obviously lead us to different conclusions.

Quite honestly, I'm okay with that. I have a great deal of respect for you and your convictions, whether I always agree with them or not.

I'm glad you're happy with the band and are moving forward with them, just as they are. That's probably much easier for you than it is for me, because it seems you were never a big Richie fan to start with. I'm content with the fact that this is what the band is for now, but I can't help looking over my shoulder at what used to be or what might have been. Because the biggest part of what drew me to Bon Jovi isn't there now. Not just Richie, but the chemistry that made them stand out. I still like the band and enjoy their music, but I don't think they'll ever be as good without Richie as they were with him. And I doubt that I'll stop hoping for a reunion. A genuine reunion - not one for show or for money.

In the meantime, I'm not just going to sit by and say nothing when people trash Richie, or try to take away from what he meant to this band for 30 years, or blame him for everything that's gone wrong during that time and say he did things that he didn't do. That's not my nature any more than it is yours; and people might just as well ask the sun to not come up in the morning.

[Captain_jovi]

Originally Posted by JackieBlue

As for other members reiterating his addiction as the problem, I honestly believe that they're going to say what they're told to say, for the most part. They still work for the machine and handling the press is part of the job, so you stick with the agreed upon party-line.

I'm not saying they're doing it to hurt Richie or his reputation. But because his addiction issues are well-known, it seems to me that that's become the easy or go-to excuse for everything, especially when people (band and fans) would rather ignore that other things probably played into it as well. Much like the smokescreen about Ava, there's undeniable truth and it's already a known fact, so go ahead and put that out there. Then you won't have to bring other reasons, perhaps more significant reasons, out of the shadows and face them - or deal with any collateral damage they might cause.

That just feels like a cynical way of looking at the issue. If we're going by that way then nothing anyone says ever can be believed because the PR team might have told them to say it, making every interview useless. There are people on Twitter from his former team alluding that he's with a bunch of enablers that aren't dealing with his addictions. If that's true then the band would have to be telling the truth when they talk about his demons. We're now talking about multiple sources.

[JackieBlue]

Originally Posted by Captain_jovi

But we're not. We're saying that people are swearing up and down he's not drinking or on drugs and it had nothing to do with him splitting but the band said otherwise after originally saying it had nothing to do with it. You're right though, we'll never know the truth but something is going on with him.

Who's saying he's not drinking or doing drugs? I must have missed that one.

[Becky]

There was no official split in the 90s. They all went home tired. They never "split up"; they just needed time to recover. During that time, Jon was on such a roller coaster that he felt like he had to tour and make an album because that was what he was used to. Therefore, when he was asked to contribute a song for Young Guns II, he did a whole album. Then, he went on the road with Southside Johnny as a rhythm guitar player. That is when his friendship with Bobby Bandiera really developed. One thing he talked about being so screwed up from the touring schedule, he wouldn't even let his wife unpack his suitcase. It was at that time he worked with Aldo Nova and Billy Falcon and also battle his own depression. He also contributed work for Hall and Oates and Stevie Nicks.

In the meantime, David was recovering from an intestinal parasite that he got in South America. He reportedly spent weeks in the hospital very sick. Of course, Richie did his solo album. Tico worked on getting over his addiction to alcohol. At no time, in the press, did any of the band members say that the band had split up. They were merely taking a hiatus.

[Becky]

Yep, Jackie, you and I should definitely find a cause we both believe in and work together. It would be far more productive than discussing Bon Jovi.

I certainly appreciate what Richie has contributed to the band. I've never had a problem with him so much as his fans who blame Jon for all his problems and want to give him 100% credit for anything they like and blame Jon for anything they don't. At least I squarely put the blame on Jon for writing politically tinged songs that make me unable to listen to or enjoy them. Like they have said, it's his voice. I also look directly at Jon for making poor decisions to throw his hat in with political candidates when he knows it will turn people away from him and the band. I equally hate the Republican and Democratic parties because they are hate-mongers who want to keep citizens at odds with each other over nonsense while they screw us all behind our backs. I'm sort of going off on a tangent there. What I was getting at is being from a "red" state, I know a lot of people who won't support anyone who is open with their political opinion (most celebs are "blue").

I'm not a fan of Richie as a solo artist, but I just don't like his voice. I still bought his albums to support him, which is more than 99% of Bon Jovi fans did. I never wished for him to fall or fail.