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  #921  
Old 05-09-2021, 10:59 PM
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Originally Posted by semigoodlooking View Post
Isn't it more likely that the casuals would prefer not to listen to neither a cut from the first two records, or album songs from post 2000? Wouldn't the casual "Bon Jovi are coming through town, they have some cool songs, let's check them out" fan prefer a setlit built entirely of singles?

Whether those singles were popular at the time or not, when they head to YouTube or Spotify, for example, those are the songs they will see/hear. There are plenty of singles that would appeal to both the casual and die-hard as much as Shot Through the Heart or Whole Lot of Leaving would. In fact, Whole Lot of Leaving was a single in some markets, so I guess people would prefer to hear that as a casual listener.
Yea, but the casual fans and nostalgia fans are not the same though.

The casual fans are the ones that only know Cross Road or The Greatest Hits. The songs have have been played on the radio (or get the most YouTube views/Spotify plays).

The nostalgia fans are the ones that aren't interested in anything post 1995 (earlier for some).

And then there are the fans that are familar with all albums from all eras, mostly the hardcore fans.

Let's be honest there are no fans, or at least very few, that like 2000 onwards only....

Just because a song was released as a single is some territories it doesn't mean it will go over better than a non single. All of the Lost Highway singles flopped in the UK, including Make A Memory. No casuals here know that song.
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  #922  
Old 05-09-2021, 11:05 PM
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Yea, but the casual fans and nostalgia fans are not the same though.

The casual fans are the ones that only know Cross Road or The Greatest Hits. The songs have have been played on the radio (or get the most YouTube views/Spotify plays).

The nostalgia fans are the ones that aren't interested in anything post 1995 (earlier for some).

And then there are the fans that are familar with all albums from all eras, mostly the hardcore fans.

Let's be honest there are no fans, or at least very few, that like 2000 onwards only....
Yeah it's not a BIG number of people that want the 2000+ stuff only but they are there. But the fans they got from IML onwards, the country leaning stuff fits better in that world then the early 80's stuff and a sizeable chunk of the audience came from Crush forward. I'm one of them. I'd only want the early album stuff because it's done so rarely, not necessarily because I like it more. Semi has a good point. Going on Youtube to catch up mostly everything they're doing at least has a video.
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  #923  
Old 05-10-2021, 12:20 AM
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A casual fan may not be too familiar with either Whole Lot of Leaving or Shot Through the Heart. My point is I don't think it matters to the casual what Jon plays outside of the hits. Still, I think the casual stands a better chance of finding a single so they may be more familiar with those songs, that's all.

If you go through Bon Jovi's album songs and compare them to some lesser known singles, the listens on Spotify are mostly the same. I think it's only die-hards listening to these songs either way.

For me, both sides of the debate are correct. There's probably a better chance a casual would know Whole Lot of Leaving more than Shot Through the Heart because it's more recent. However, I don't think the casual will hear the intro of Whole Lot of Leaving and think "Yeah, this is what I came for". Jon could just as well play Shot Through the Heart and get the same reaction from a casual... indifference.

It seems Jon stands by some songs more than others, for various reasons. One of the problems is he seems to have terrible taste in his own music.
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  #924  
Old 05-10-2021, 04:54 PM
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I think this issue with what is and what isn't played has only really become a problem over the last couple of years due to Jon losing the ability to sing.

Up to and including the WAN tour, set lists have always been shaken up regularly to appease casual and die hard fans.

I've seen alot of bands over the years but I've never known any to alter their sets as drastically as Jon did. Most bands stick to the same rigid set and change one or two for the same songs every other night. Jon used to change set lists on a whim if he decided he wanted to play something different.

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  #925  
Old 05-10-2021, 05:25 PM
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I think this issue with what is and what isn't played has only really become a problem over the last couple of years due to Jon losing the ability to sing.

Up to and including the WAN tour, set lists have always been shaken up regularly to appease casual and die hard fans.

I've seen alot of bands over the years but I've never known any to alter their sets as drastically as Jon did. Most bands stick to the same rigid set and change one or two for the same songs every other night. Jon used to change set lists on a whim if he decided he wanted to play something different.

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Did he though? I think it's of massive importance to note what area we're talking about. I'm only speaking about 2002 onwards, North America wise the setlists were pretty much the same the whole tour with certain slots swapped around here and there, especially if it's multiple nights in the same city. Even as early as 2005 I saw a lot of boredom and sitting down for the TLFR versions and some album cuts.

But yeah, again, UK and Japan are a world away from what we get here. I'd more luck out being so close to Toronto where we'd get a decent rarity per show up until 2013.
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  #926  
Old 05-10-2021, 07:20 PM
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Aloha !

Quote:
Originally Posted by James_86 View Post
I've seen alot of bands over the years but I've never known any to alter their sets as drastically as Jon did. Most bands stick to the same rigid set and change one or two for the same songs every other night. Jon used to change set lists on a whim if he decided he wanted to play something different.
Jon never used to change setlists on a whim. The times he did so are rare. He'll make you believe he's doing something spontaneous and yet when you see the set it was planned all along. There's plenty of bootlegs on which he'll go "I'm changing the set, I'm going crazy tonight!" and he'll then add 1 song followed by the same set as the previous night.

As for other bands not changing the set; I've seen this argument plenty of times but bands who don't change their set while on tour do change it per tour. With Bon Jovi, the setlist has been pretty much the same for well over 20 years now. The new songs are replaced by newer songs on the next tour.

Now compare this to other bands and you'll find that a lot of them have put in at least 3 different songs in the set they didn't play last tour. The last time Bon Jovi brought back a song from the dead and made it a regular was Amen in 2018. But the last time Bon Jovi brought something back from the dead people actually cared for was Something For The Pain in 2010. And even that one was often one of the first songs dropped if Jon wanted to cut short the acoustic set.

Take the average setlist of the Crush tour and compare it to the average setlist of the 2019 tour. Take out the new stuff and you've got a difference of just 6 songs:

2000 had:
I'll Be There For You
Someday I'll Be Saturday Night
Say It Isn't So
One Wild Night

2019 had:
Raise Your Hands
Lost Highway
Whole Lot of Leavin'
We Weren't Born to Follow
Have a Nice Day
Amen

And most setlists on a tour are completely without rarities. You've got your entire North American tour of which 90% is completely standard. There's plenty of European shows without rare songs. You're from the U.K. but take the last 3 tours in the U.K.;

For every show with something supposedly spontaneous there's at least 2 or 3 with predictable, standard setlists. You're from the U.K. so your perspective is a bit skewed but even on the 2010 tour which had great setlists you'd often be able to predict the changes for the following night.

So yes, Bon Jovi play a rare song occasionally. They mix it up. But the pool of songs they pick from has been the same for close to 20 years as well. If they're going to play a rare song you know it's either These Days, Always or a song no one but Jon enjoys.

Meanwhile, other bands however play a rare song or two every night. I follow quite a lot of artists like I follow Bon Jovi and none of them play the same stuff night after night, tour after tour. I know there's examples of bands that do but those are absolutely in the minority. Would Bon Jovi play very different setlists per tour the critisism would be a lot smaller as die hards would be pleased every night as opposed to 1 in 3 to 4 shows.

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  #927  
Old 05-10-2021, 07:28 PM
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Aloha !







Jon never used to change setlists on a whim. The times he did so are rare. He'll make you believe he's doing something spontaneous and yet when you see the set it was planned all along. There's plenty of bootlegs on which he'll go "I'm changing the set, I'm going crazy tonight!" and he'll then add 1 song followed by the same set as the previous night.



As for other bands not changing the set; I've seen this argument plenty of times but bands who don't change their set while on tour do change it per tour. With Bon Jovi, the setlist has been pretty much the same for well over 20 years now. The new songs are replaced by newer songs on the next tour.



Now compare this to other bands and you'll find that a lot of them have put in at least 3 different songs in the set they didn't play last tour. The last time Bon Jovi brought back a song from the dead and made it a regular was Amen in 2018. But the last time Bon Jovi brought something back from the dead people actually cared for was Something For The Pain in 2010. And even that one was often one of the first songs dropped if Jon wanted to cut short the acoustic set.



Take the average setlist of the Crush tour and compare it to the average setlist of the 2019 tour. Take out the new stuff and you've got a difference of just 6 songs:



2000 had:

I'll Be There For You

Someday I'll Be Saturday Night

Say It Isn't So

One Wild Night



2019 had:

Raise Your Hands

Lost Highway

Whole Lot of Leavin'

We Weren't Born to Follow

Have a Nice Day

Amen



And most setlists on a tour are completely without rarities. You've got your entire North American tour of which 90% is completely standard. There's plenty of European shows without rare songs. You're from the U.K. but take the last 3 tours in the U.K.;



For every show with something supposedly spontaneous there's at least 2 or 3 with predictable, standard setlists. You're from the U.K. so your perspective is a bit skewed but even on the 2010 tour which had great setlists you'd often be able to predict the changes for the following night.



So yes, Bon Jovi play a rare song occasionally. They mix it up. But the pool of songs they pick from has been the same for close to 20 years as well. If they're going to play a rare song you know it's either These Days, Always or a song no one but Jon enjoys.



Meanwhile, other bands however play a rare song or two every night. I follow quite a lot of artists like I follow Bon Jovi and none of them play the same stuff night after night, tour after tour. I know there's examples of bands that do but those are absolutely in the minority. Would Bon Jovi play very different setlists per tour the critisism would be a lot smaller as die hards would be pleased every night as opposed to 1 in 3 to 4 shows.



Salaam Aleikum,

Sebastiaan
Your first sentence completely backs up my last sentence but ok. I'm not suggesting whole set lists were changed. That's ridiculous. I was merely pointing out where Jon has decided to play something different as an opener for example.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's well documented Jon writes the set hours before a show. Would that be necessary if the set was the same every night with the same pool of 'rare' songs?

Yes, I am from the UK and I've been fortunate to see plenty of songs that aren't These Days, Always or Dry County. Peace.

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  #928  
Old 05-10-2021, 07:36 PM
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Aloha !

So yes, Bon Jovi play a rare song occasionally. They mix it up. But the pool of songs they pick from has been the same for close to 20 years as well. If they're going to play a rare song you know it's either These Days, Always or a song no one but Jon enjoys.


Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan
This is the problem for me. Any changes that are made are clearly just the same group of songs. It's like a secondary setlist.

I honestly don't know what Jon thinks with some of his song choices. Truth is, he is boring die hards and casuals with many of them. My wife is a casual Bon Jovi fan and she was checking out in BA 2017 (which was an OK set overall) when Captain Crash, Lost Highway, and those songs were played.

So, if you're not catering to the casual with those songs, what purpose do they serve? Die hards are not getting a kick from them either.
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  #929  
Old 05-10-2021, 07:57 PM
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Your first sentence completely backs up my last sentence but ok. I'm not suggesting whole set lists were changed. That's ridiculous. I was merely pointing out where Jon has decided to play something different as an opener for example.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but it's well documented Jon writes the set hours before a show. Would that be necessary if the set was the same every night with the same pool of 'rare' songs?

Yes, I am from the UK and I've been fortunate to see plenty of songs that aren't These Days, Always or Dry County. Peace.

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I think a lot if that is pre-planned though, ie on a certain tour if they did two shows in a city and wanted to swap them out, they'd be predetermined. Swapping out the opener isn't a case of "Jon might switch it to any song possible" it'll be either Happy Now or Blood on Blood for The Circle tour. WAN was That's what the water made me, and someones Last Man Standing. Setlists are done a few hours before, sure, but the ones he's pulling from aren't that deep a well.
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  #930  
Old 05-10-2021, 08:04 PM
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I think a lot if that is pre-planned though, ie on a certain tour if they did two shows in a city and wanted to swap them out, they'd be predetermined. Swapping out the opener isn't a case of "Jon might switch it to any song possible" it'll be either Happy Now or Blood on Blood for The Circle tour. WAN was That's what the water made me, and someones Last Man Standing. Setlists are done a few hours before, sure, but the ones he's pulling from aren't that deep a well.
Or Raise Your Hands or Rocking All Over The World. I think I've been a bit misunderstood, no pun intended. I'm not suggesting they play a completely different set everynight where you could get anything from King of the Mountain to Judgement Day or Fields of Fire, I just think you lot are getting your knickers in a twist over an issue that hasn't really been an issue until fairly recently.

Granted US shows are more cookie cutter, but the shows I've experienced have been anything but.

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