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Originally Posted by Captain_jovi
It's different there but there's a clear usage of
"benefit of the doubt" to support one theory but erase it completely on the other.
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Huh? We know exactkly what happened with The Fighter - it's documented clearly in the documentary....there is no need for "benefit of the doubt" here..
Wildflower is purely speculation on BOTH sides. Again. that was my point...
All we know is that Richie has never mentioned being upset about Wildflower, but clearly was about The Fighter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_jovi
My point wasn't so much that they are similar incidences, it's that post 2000, the lines of what was Jon and what was band blurred significantly and I don't completely agree it was Shanks's doing.
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I don't think anyone has ever blamed Shanks fully. Jon is as much to blame for The Fighter stuff. In fact nikos post said exactly that...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_jovi
I'm a bit muddy about the recording of the solo without his knowledge, which was this for, The Fighter? It's a lot of messy stuff but from RS's recollection he thought he could make it better, they were happy how it was and he told them to have at it. IF that's what we're talking about, and it honestly might not be, it's a hell of a lot closer to the Wildflower situation that you're proposing happened. Don't get me wrong, a lot of stuff went down with the WAN stuff I have no problem throwing Jon down a well on.
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I don't think there's anything muddy about it. Again, both sides get their say on this in the documentary. Shanks was the producer, not the guitar player. For him to start playing solos is out of order. That's on him (for oversteppinng his role as a producer) and Jon (for allowing it). It's clear that this was the moment that broke the band and Richie decided he was done. It could have and should have been handled differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain_jovi
Sure it's not the first time Bobby has done a solo on a band related project but other than a b-side or box set song, I think it's very very very weird. It's speculation Richie was cool with it but it's also my speculation it diminished his role in the band.
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Remember this was before Richie fell off the wagon and he has no solo commitments at the time. There's no reason to think that Richie wasn't fully present for the whole of Have A Nice Day, unlike What About Now. It's possible also that Wildflower was recorded on a day that Richie just wasn't available for whatever reason. Again, in 2005 I find it hard to believe that Jon would have gone ahead without Richie's knowledge. It just doesn't ring right for how things were in 2005. They were still a unit at that point unlile 2012.
Again, in my opinion it's very different to have your second guitar player play on a song than your co-producer. Shanks was already beginning to take over Richie's role as Jon's sideman and co-songwriter at that point. The difference to having Bobby play a solo is huge and I can't believe that you can't see that...