New Studio Album - Forever

Yes, agreed. And I also think it was rather intuitive to do it that way in those years. Like here's the formula, let's not go against it, but just write with two guitars and see what happens. I'm not saying they just sat down without any contemplation what is a hit and it just happened. But with SWW they did in fact find that formula, they were THE pop/rock band of the later part of 80's. Just an example, how they produced Born to be my Baby was perhaps not optimal. Jon would agree. Still, song was No. 3 on charts (if I remember). Any other era, you do something non-optimal (like produce Always or BOR more in power-anthem style of pop-metal I'll be there for you) and it just doesn't chart. But in 1988-89, if you produce a turd after SWW, it goes to top10

I think Rock had input for sure more so than shanks does now as a producer.
Quality also puts Shanks at a disadvantage, Rock gets handed Dry County and Shanks gets handed American Reckoning.
I honestly think jon is writing most of this recent garbage himself and shanks/falcon might make minor additions.
If jon had the ability to make a proper rock album today and he told shanks I want a kick ass rock album, I think Shanks could deliver that as a producer and co-writer.

I'll Be There For You is predominantly with an electric guitar or am I taking crazy pills. Richie riffing in the verses with jon's vocal really makes this song special. Also for me one of jon's best vocals and one of richie's best solos, great song.

Got it, and it makes sense. I agree in fact that Jon writes most of it. This didn't really change from KTF days. It's just that I believe that Shanks commits to a song too early, and also opposite counts, Jon relies on Shanks too heavily (after bringing acoustic cellphone demo, robotic drum track is established and rough track recorded without band). We have proof that Shanks does it like this on numerous albums. In my opinion, this is a major reason for new sound. Whose blame is it is really a secondary concern, of course bucket stops with Jon. But it is what it is. I can easily imagine Dry County without solo being something like Water Made Me or whatever. Or I Believe being watered robotic cringe like I'm with you

Yea, I am just thankful we have Keep The Faith as is with great songs, perfect production and amazing performances.

What proof? We know that's how HAND was done. What proof is there for albums after that that it was recorded without the band then drums added after?

WAN is explicitly said by Shanks himself:

"Jon and Richie would come to my house, and after the songs were written, or occasionally as a starting point, we'd start programming beats and they'd play guitar, while I played guitars, bass and keyboards, and programmed loops in Logic. We laid the foundations of the arrangements for many songs in that way, with help from my engineer, Paul Lamalfe, and the album's engineer Dan Chase. That was fun, because we could experiment with different sounds and arrangements"

https://www.soundonsound.com/techniq...what-about-now

Right and I believe they took those arrangements into the studio. It's no different then the pre-production Jon and Richie did for years pre-Shanks. Jon and Richie doing them on their own with a drum machine



Are there songs recorded with Jon, Richie and Shanks recording the tracks and then the band plays on top of that after? Sure but the majority of those were for HAND. Shanks has even named some of the songs the band recorded together, live off the floor with overdubs coming after so it's wildly disingenious to say that's how Shanks albums are recorded still.

I'm not saying they are recorded with programmed drums still there. Some tracks probably have some programmed drum tracks left, but I have no judgmental problem with that, in fact I record like that with my band cause its easier and better if you don't have worldclass studio equipment all the time available.

What I'm arguing is that the process is so simplified when you present Jon with simple drum beat and the whole song is finished rather quickly, very similarly to others, with no real space for band to play a bit with it, to do something unique in each song, different way to go for bridge or outro, riffs that go out of the main pattern, etc.

It's basically Jon (and Richie or whoever) with Shanks acting as keyboard player, drummer, bassist, guitarist (and co-lyrics writer). If Shanks is allowed to be all that (and he is, by Jon), then I think producing needs to be in other hands.

This way whole process is introducing the band very late. Is it the only or even largest problem of modern sound? No way. I'm not saying that if you sit Tico and Hugh with Jon 2 months earlier you have new masterpiece, but you at least get the hope that something different happens when outsider produces and band is pushed. Now, only SHanks is pushed, and mostly by himself. So, in all our discussions, I would say that I softened a bit on Shanks: I do not consider him neither bad player nor bad songwriter nor bad producer. But all at once, yes, it's not good, and even if it was (as in HAND somewhat), it gets stale very quickly.

EDIT: I see what you mean, they recorded since early days with drum machine at home. But it was only then brought to studio where band was waiting, alongside producer with fresh ears. Nowadays, you sit with Shanks to co-write songs and he instantaneously produces them in the process. You cannot disentangle that. You don't have power of outsider and/or fresh ears to do anything differently cause he was already involved in that pre-production part. That's why I just think that he needs to be either co-songwriter and band memeber OR producer. But today it's too late to make that choice really, as he is insiderman as it gets.

I mean, in the end, to be a fly on the wall. But imagine having a producer that also co-wrote Prayer. Does he as co-writer (as Desmond for example) sees and hears the need to get talkbox inside or push Hugh to the limit to produce that bass line?). Or even he says okay this is not finished, let me get a bass guitar and try something different. You need outsider for that, that's at least my line of reasoning. Shanks is not less of a good writer,producer,musician. But if you bring the song to the table and both you and Jon are satisfied in that pre-production period, chances are you are not going to tangle with it for months, chasing something different

For how many pages has this "Shanks doesn't push Bon Jovi" vs. "it's not Shanks" been going on now?
With WAN: Tico refused to come in until late in the recording process 'cause he didn't agree with Jon's schedule. Jon's own words.
The drums have been sounding like shit for most of the last decade on the records. John's to blame. No matter wich one, pick your "favourite" for that