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Adrian · #11 12-04-2005, 08:14 AM

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adrian for someone as attached to his "rights" as you and for a country which acts like a "defender" of the human rights worldwide, support of the death penalty is not normal, if not weird.

And how many times have my defenses of individual rights been put down here...?

When a person enacts harm upon a non-consenting victim, that person must be punished in order for society to continue. That punishment should stand on equal footing with the damage enacted, not too low as to show that crime goes relatively unpunished, and not too high so that society becomes drunk with power (beheading as a punishment for stealing is more than a bit excessive).

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another thing, there are people with a somewhat simplistic thought who support dp because they think it saves them money (let alone their views about morality and human rights) but the whole dp system costs a lot. and if that money was spent on education or on social welfare the crime rates would reduce.

The reason death row is so expensive is because we allow these prisoners to tie up the courts with frivolous lawsuits, thereby keeping them alive and ON death row for years. And again, we pay for college educations, color tvs, Red Lobster order-in, and featherbeds. Lower the cost to society to the point where prison wasn't a high-security hotel with higher-learning capabilities, and I think support for the death penalty would decline.

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as if prisoners don't have to face enough in prisons (abuse from guards and other prisoners, lack of medical care, overcrowding in prisons, etc) they should be deprived from basic stuff too? and not all prisoners are killers or rapers or drug dealers you know... there are people who have commited less serious crimes but after the time they spend imprisoned they deteriorate. you should think whether prisons must exist for both punishment and rehabilitation or only for punishment.

Thus, prison should be an punishment only for those who have hurt a non-consenting victim. Dropping the community college option and King Crab from the menu for hardened murderers and rapists is not exactly inhumane. Society should have the ability to be lenient with first time offenders (giving them a chance to "get it right next time" if such a chance is desired and considered worth the risk) but releasing three-time violent offenders back into society to watch them kill again (as at least one, probably three did in my area recently) is making a joke out of law and order. If we would stop throwing potsmokers and other self-abusers-and-enablers in jail at the rate of tens-if-not-hundreds of thousands each year, we wouldn't need to cycle our truly violent, feral losers through the system time and time again.

Adrian

Keeper · #12 12-04-2005, 02:51 PM

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Originally Posted by tweety_b

I'm against death penalty too, but I think you really need to experience it to give a judgement. I mean, if someone would do something horrible to MY friend, MY family, then I would probably agree with death penalty for him.

I once read an interview with a girl whose father had been brutally murdered. The murderer was about to be executed and the girl was saying that she didn't wish any family to go through what she was going through, no matter how bad that person was or how much damage they had inflicted on her family.

Keeper · #13 12-04-2005, 02:55 PM

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Originally Posted by Adrian

How 'bout this: Everyone on death row gets their sentence commuted to exile - then they're parachuted into the wilds of Alaska with 30lbs of dry beans, a tent, and a shovel. They can live in peace and cold as long as they like and are able to scratch out a living, but they're dead men if they turn up in town, and they'll be easily recognizable because they'll have the crime they were exiled for tattooed across their forehead.

Yeah, just like Siberia in the good ol' times, right?

Kev · #14 12-04-2005, 03:35 PM

Well, In my opinion, if the guy was a killer, then why should he not be killed as well? Why let him get away with going round killing people? If he thinks killing someone is acceptable then he should be killed also. If he doesnt wanna be killed himself, then he shouldnt commit murder in the first place. Its that simple! If its legal or not, makes no difference to me. Anyone who takes someone elses life, ahould have their life taken also. Setting an example like this, could reduce the amount of murders in the future!

Keeper · #15 12-04-2005, 05:51 PM

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Originally Posted by Kev

Well, In my opinion, if the guy was a killer, then why should he not be killed as well? Why let him get away with going round killing people? If he thinks killing someone is acceptable then he should be killed also. If he doesnt wanna be killed himself, then he shouldnt commit murder in the first place. Its that simple! If its legal or not, makes no difference to me. Anyone who takes someone elses life, ahould have their life taken also. Setting an example like this, could reduce the amount of murders in the future!

But then - shouldn't the state be "killed" to for killing someone else. It's all a vicious cycle. An eye for an eye belongs to the past, IMO.

And it's been proven repeatedly taht death penalty is no deterrent - it has no effect whatsoever on the amount of murders.

ugly_queen_from_mars · #16 12-04-2005, 06:19 PM

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Originally Posted by Adrian

And how many times have my defenses of individual rights been put down here...?

When a person enacts harm upon a non-consenting victim, that person must be punished in order for society to continue. That punishment should stand on equal footing with the damage enacted, not too low as to show that crime goes relatively unpunished, and not too high so that society becomes drunk with power (beheading as a punishment for stealing is more than a bit excessive).

The reason death row is so expensive is because we allow these prisoners to tie up the courts with frivolous lawsuits, thereby keeping them alive and ON death row for years. And again, we pay for college educations, color tvs, Red Lobster order-in, and featherbeds. Lower the cost to society to the point where prison wasn't a high-security hotel with higher-learning capabilities, and I think support for the death penalty would decline.

Thus, prison should be an punishment only for those who have hurt a non-consenting victim. Dropping the community college option and King Crab from the menu for hardened murderers and rapists is not exactly inhumane. Society should have the ability to be lenient with first time offenders (giving them a chance to "get it right next time" if such a chance is desired and considered worth the risk) but releasing three-time violent offenders back into society to watch them kill again (as at least one, probably three did in my area recently) is making a joke out of law and order. If we would stop throwing potsmokers and other self-abusers-and-enablers in jail at the rate of tens-if-not-hundreds of thousands each year, we wouldn't need to cycle our truly violent, feral losers through the system time and time again.

Adrian

three paragraphs stating almost the same thing - eye for an eye, prisoners should not be held in good conditions (seriously i don't know what kind of prisons you have there or if the outside world is so ****ed up that some might prefer prison) and violating of non consenting victims' rights - using fancy words, aren't convincing enough.
tell me do you see any fault in executing mentally ill or innonent people and juveniles or not? of course trials cost more, but would you like being sentenced to death without investigation and fair(?) trial?
so you want an intolerant society, a murderer state and really poor conditions in prisons - which will not lead to law abiding people for sure (and i'm talking about the time these people will be released. unless releasing them isn't an option for you.)

the world isn't black and white and the people are not separated in good and bad. if someone commits a crime, it might be because he is "bad" indeed or there might be a thousand reasons for his act. this is where the judicial inquiry should act.
the problem is that a poor person with no means to hire a top lawyer will end up executed or life sentenced while a rich and powerful person, most of the times, can get away with it.

ugly_queen_from_mars · #17 12-04-2005, 06:30 PM

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Originally Posted by Keeper

But then - shouldn't the state be "killed" to for killing someone else. It's all a vicious cycle. An eye for an eye belongs to the past, IMO.

And it's been proven repeatedly taht death penalty is no deterrent - it has no effect whatsoever on the amount of murders.

or we might as well go back to stoning people to death. it's quick, cheap and effective.

Jim Bon Jovi · #18 12-04-2005, 06:34 PM

not got a problem with it personally. it's not like they're killing shoplifters or people who don't have car insurance....

Keeper · #19 12-04-2005, 11:08 PM

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Originally Posted by ugly_queen_from_mars

of course trials cost more, but would you like being sentenced to death without investigation and fair(?) trial?

I once read that the costs of the trial - all the rounds it has to go through in order to be a case for death penalty would cover the expenses of several prisoners condemned to a life sentence!

So everyone in prison should be going through what the prisoners in Guantánamo are facing? A prison that makes other is worse off countries look like 5-star hotels?

Sheesh.

Jim Bon Jovi · #20 12-05-2005, 06:29 AM

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Originally Posted by Keeper

I once read that the costs of the trial - all the rounds it has to go through in order to be a case for death penalty would cover the expenses of several prisoners condemned to a life sentence!

So everyone in prison should be going through what the prisoners in Guantánamo are facing? A prison that makes other is worse off countries look like 5-star hotels?

Sheesh.

why not? we're talking about criminals here. why should society spare them any consideration when they've violated their social contract with society?

i'll say one thing. i'm always much more wary of what i get upto when i'm abroad because the jails over there are much worse than they are here.....

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