2008 US Election

Has anyone ever seen Monty Python"s Life of Brian and the "what have the Romans done for us?" speech. They go on to mention the aqueduct, sanitation, roads, irrigation, medicine, education, and they brought peace by having public order (ie. the police). Needless to say it turned out there were many thing the Romans had done for Britain. Well in our day all those things are available because we pay taxes. And if none of us want to pay taxes, noone would have any of those advantages.

On a similar subject in an article in the Times Thomas Friedman:

I only wish she (Sarah Palin) had been asked: "Governor Palin, if paying taxes is not considered patriotic in your neighborhood, who is going to pay for the body armor that will protect your son in Iraq? Who is going to pay for the bailout you endorsed? If it isn't from tax revenues, there are only two ways to pay for those big projects — printing more money or borrowing more money. Do you think borrowing money from China is more patriotic than raising it in taxes from Americans?" That is not putting America first. That is selling America first.

Sorry, I grew up in a very middle-class family in a very middle-class suburb of Minneapolis, and my parents taught me that paying taxes, while certainly no fun, was how we paid for the police and the Army, our public universities and local schools, scientific research and Medicare for the elderly. No one said it better than Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes: "I like paying taxes. With them I buy civilization."
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I'm not fond of all taxes myself but why are they considered evil by so many? I like the civilization and society I get in return.

that's a great article kathleen.

i'd also chime in and say if we didn't pay taxes how would the selfless bastions of academia such as myself get our money from?

private education is all well and good in theory but you'd be surprised how many dumb****s i know who had a fortune spent on their education because their parents didn't want them going to mainstream schools. i could go into the ins and outs of why this happens but to put it simply, if mr and mrs S are paying a school £15,000 a year for little joey's teaching, he is going to do as well as mr and mrs S expect even if it means the teachers babysitting and doing most of the work for little joey...

then little joey gets into university where it's sink or swim and you know what, little joey ain't doing so well whereas those in public education who didn't have the opportunity for the best equipment in classrooms and the newest textbooks are used to having to work off their own steam...

make of that what you will but i'm sure i'm not the only person with a degree who has noticed how many private pupils do ridiculously well with regards to high school attainment then drop out within a few months of getting to uni because they can't hack it.

In the same vein, here is something I brought before (or maybe it was Kathleen?):

"Day in the Life of Joe Middle-Class Republican

by John Gray

Joe gets up at 6:00am to prepare his morning coffee. He fills his pot full of good clean drinking water because some liberal fought for minimum water quality standards. He takes his daily medication with his first swallow of coffee. His medications are safe to take because some liberal fought to insure their safety and work as advertised.

All but $10.00 of his medications are paid for by his employers medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance, now Joe gets it too. He prepares his morning breakfast, bacon and eggs this day. Joe’s bacon is safe to eat because some liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry.

Joe takes his morning shower reaching for his shampoo; His bottle is properly labeled with every ingredient and the amount of its contents because some liberal fought for his right to know what he was putting on his body and how much it contained. Joe dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air he breathes is clean because some tree hugging liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. He walks to the subway station for his government subsidized ride to work; it saves him considerable money in parking and transportation fees. You see, some liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor.

Joe begins his work day; he has a good job with excellent pay, medicals benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Joe’s employer pays these standards because Joe’s employer doesn’t want his employees to call the union. If Joe is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed he’ll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some liberal didn’t think he should lose his home because of his temporary misfortune.

Its noon time, Joe needs to make a Bank Deposit so he can pay some bills. Joe’s deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some liberal wanted to protect Joe’s money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the depression.

Joe has to pay his Fannie Mae underwritten Mortgage and his below market federal student loan because some stupid liberal decided that Joe and the government would be better off if he was educated and earned more money over his life-time.

Joe is home from work, he plans to visit his father this evening at his farm home in the country. He gets in his car for the drive to dads; his car is among the safest in the world because some liberal fought for car safety standards. He arrives at his boyhood home. He was the third generation to live in the house financed by Farmers Home Administration because bankers didn’t want to make rural loans. The house didn’t have electric until some big government liberal stuck his nose where it didn’t belong and demanded rural electrification. (Those rural Republican’s would still be sitting in the dark)

He is happy to see his dad who is now retired. His dad lives on Social Security and his union pension because some liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Joe wouldn’t have to. After his visit with dad he gets back in his car for the ride home.

He turns on a radio talk show, the host’s keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. (He doesn’t tell Joe that his beloved Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Joe enjoys throughout his day) Joe agrees, “We don’t need those big government liberals ruining our lives; after all, I’m a self made man who believes everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have”."


Ponrauil

Oh that's excellent Aure - I have seen that in various forms before but I didn't post it. As I said - I can bitch about taxes with the best of them - but ultimately it's an underpinning of my society that I would not be willing to eliminate.

Imagine if a fire breaks out in your house and you can't afford to have the fire department (now paid for by taxes) come to put it out. Or if your neighbor dumped raw sewage in their backyard because they couldn't afford the hookup to the public sewer. Or if the cops (or the ambulance) wouldn't come to help if you couldn't pay them. I shudder to think what the society would be like.

Why do people never think of these things when they bitch about the "tax and spend" democrats.

That's what LAW is for. Law is perfectly acceptable for telling people not to rape and murder each other. It is not an acceptable use of the force of law to attempt (and that's all you're going to be able to do) to equalize everyone's station in life.

I'm happy that you've developed a generous world view. Please don't force it on me.

Of course I'd help someone out. It's my choice. Nobody in government is saying "help them out or we'll arrest you."

Since Jan. 1st, I've made $7000, which is pretty shitty money for me. I gave up the opportunity to make $5000 to advance my education over the summer. $4000 of that was spent on investments, a quarter of which I lost in this recent stock market debacle. And you know what, I'm still planning on making my annual donation to the Christmas book drive. Usually the amount I donate is a drop in my financial bucket, this year though, it's well over a tenth of what I've made this year. I'm plenty charitable on my own, and would be even more so if people in Congress would leave my money alone.

Streetlights, cops, fire department are all usually state and local entities, and are for general use. I have no problem paying reasonable taxes for such things. Taxation for post offices, roads, a military, patents, etc. is provided for in the US Constitution and is perfectly reasonable. Taking money from those who have more and giving it out, no strings attached to every Tom, Dick, and Harry who show up with their hand out is no reasonable and is not provided for in our highest law.

It is not hard to put on a button-up shirt, comb your hair, and find higher-than-minimum wage job with opportunities for advancement. My godfather started off on the canning line at Green Giant Canning and ended up the VP. My dad put himself through college on his own dime working that same canning line, and is now a teacher supporting a one-income family. My boss flunked out of his first college, put himself through the second, and is now a retail manager making very good money. One of my friends at work put herself through under grad college, and is currently going through grad school while working full time - doing such a good job that she got a promotion. I can find you a dozen more stories like that every time I go into work.

If someone is physically capable of working, they can support themselves. It's not going to be a lot of fun, and it's probably not going to get them onto an episode of MTV's Cribs, but they can do it. I and the rest of the working population should not be forced by law to support other people's laziness and mistakes and poor financial decisions.

Adrian

PS I'm not going to be able to debate this one for a while. I'm working nearly 60 hours in the next 5 days.

Ahh isn't this sweet? The guy is obviously a good writer. Just like the radio host in his story.

I don't post in this thread usually as it's hard for me to find the english words to talk about that.

But this story of Joe the plumber is .... excellent !!! can't believe it's true !!!
Politic in France is scary but as usual it's much worse in the US !!!

Colin Powell endorses Obama. Comes a bit as a surprise to me. I think this topic could just as well be closed now. Unless Barack Obama screws up badly ( I can't even imagine how he could do that) he is most probably going to win. And I think he deserves it. The republicans played disgustingly dirty this time and John McCain is simply not a strong enough candidate.

I was really skeptical about Obama. I must say, I wouldn't have though he'd make it. But he will. I just hope he gets some good economic advisers. Preferably some from Heritage or even better, some from the CATO institute :P

Saw this on a NJ site I visit often... Dawn

Around 1979 Obama started college at Occidental in California. He is very open about his two years at Occidental, he tried all kinds of drugs and was wasting his time but, even though he had a brilliant mind, did not apply himself to his studies. 'Barry' (that was the name he used all his life) during this time had two roommates, Muhammad Hasan Chandoo and Wahid Hamid, both from Pakistan.

During the summer of 1981, after his second year in college, he made a 'round the world' trip. Stopping to see his mother in Indonesia, next Hyderabad in India, three weeks in Karachi, Pakistan where he stayed with his roommate's family, then off to Africa to visit his father's family. My question - Where did he get the money for this trip? Nether I, nor any one of my children would have had money for a trip like this when they were in college.

When he came back he started school at Columbia University in New York. It is at this time he wants everyone to call him Barack - not Barry. Do you know what the tuition is at Columbia? It's not cheap to say the least! Where did he get money for tuition? Student Loans? Maybe. After Columbia, he went to Chicago to work as a Community Organizer for $12,000 a year. Why Chicago? Why not New York? He was already living in New York.

By 'chance' he met Antoin 'Tony' Rezko, born in Aleppo Syria, and a real estate developer in Chicago. Rezko has been convicted of fraud and bribery this year. Rezko, was named 'Entrepreneur of the Decade' by the Arab-American Business and Professional Association'. About two years later, Obama entered Harvard Law School. Do you have any idea what tuition is for Harvard Law School? Where did he get the money for Law School? More student loans?

After Law school, he went back to Chicago. Rezko offered him a job, which he turned down. But, he did take a job with Davis, Miner, Barnhill & Galland. Guess what? They represented 'Rezar' which is Rezko's firm. Rezko was one of Obama's first major financial contributors when he ran for office in Chicago. In 2003, Rezko threw an early fundraiser for Obama which Chicago Tribune reporter David Mendelland claims was instrumental in providing Obama with 'seed money' for his U.S. Senate race.

In 2005, Obama purchased a new home in Kenwood District of Chicago for $1.65 million (less than asking price). With ALL those Student Loans - Where did he get the money for the property? On the same day, Rezko's wife, Rita, purchased the adjoining empty lot for full price. The London Times reported that Nadhmi Auchi, an Iraqi-born Billionaire loaned Rezko $3.5 million three weeks before Obama's new home was purchased. Obama met Nadhmi Auchi many times with Rezko.

Now, we have Obama running for President. Valerie Jarrett, was Michele Obama's boss. She is now Obama's chief advisor and he does not make any major decisions without talking to her first. Where was Jarrett born? Ready for this? Shiraz, Iran! Do we see a pattern here? Or am I going crazy?

On May 10, 2008 The Times reported, Robert Malley, advisor to Obama, was 'sacked' after the press found out he was having regular contacts with 'Hamas', which controls Gaza and is connected with Iran. This past week, buried in the back part of the papers, Iraqi newspapers reported that during Obama's visit to Iraq, he asked their leaders to do nothing about the war until after he is elected, and he will 'Take care of things'.

Oh, and by the way, remember the college roommates that were born in Pakistan? They are in charge of all those “small” Internet campaign contributions for Obama. Where is that money coming from? The poor and middle class in this country? Or could it be from the Middle East?

And the final bit of news. On September 7, 2008, The Washington Times posted a verbal slip that was made on 'This Week' with George Stephanapoulos. Obama on talking about his religion said, 'My Muslim faith'. When questioned, 'he made a mistake'. Some mistake

All of the above information I got on line. If you would like to check it - Wikipedia, encyclopedia, Barack Obama;Tony Rezko; Valerie Jarrett: Daily Times - Obama visited Pakistan in 1981; The Washington Times - September 7, 2008;The Times May 10, 2008.

Now the BIG question - If I found out all this information on my own, Why haven't all of our 'intelligent' members of the press been reporting this? A phrase that keeps ringing in my ear - 'Beware of the enemy from within'!!!

Ken Morrow

You and me both. The next four years may even be scarier than the past eight. Time will tell....