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  #691  
Old 10-30-2008, 08:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DevilsSon View Post
Several reasons:

1) Exemptions are heavily reduced
2) Tax fraud is minimized
3) The 12%-15% of total tax money is saved by down-sizing the tax processing apparatus of a state which is nothing but a huge money eating machine
4) Laffer curve

And here, some more arguments: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Taxes/bg1866.cfm
Ok... it cuts spendings more than increases revenue

As much as I like reasons 1 to 3, I doubt one and two would be significant (there's always a way to work around taxes for the richest riches), and in our era reason 3 is possible with a non-flat system. If I'm not mistaken Canada's a pretty good example for that and France has this as a priority for 2009/2010.

Interesting, thanks for that, I need to learn more about finance and economy. Do you know if there are sort of hybrid systems that manage to get best of both worlds?


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  #692  
Old 10-30-2008, 09:06 PM
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Ok... it cuts spendings more than increases revenue

As much as I like reasons 1 to 3, I doubt one and two would be significant (there's always a way to work around taxes for the richest riches), and in our era reason 3 is possible with a non-flat system. If I'm not mistaken Canada's a pretty good example for that.
The experience of Eastern Europe shows that reason 1 and 2 are the most important ones. You underestimate the power of the right incentive. The marginal cost of fraud is comparatively much higher in a progressive system. Taking some basic rational choice theory arguments, a lot of people will simply consider the opportunity cost of fraud, finding loopholes, etc.. to be too high. It works pretty much like basic supply/demand principles. For whatever reason, people tend to underestimate them.

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Interesting, thanks for that, I need to learn more about finance and economy. Do you know if there are sort of hybrid systems that manage to get best of both worlds?
If I am not mistaken, Ireland has some sort of hybrid taxation system. But I can't give you much details on it. What I know is that a lot of conservative economists actually argue in favor of a hybrid system. But there isn't one such thing. There's various models, as it is difficult to imagine how one could introduce a purely flat tax in the US or Germany for example. But I guess the principle behind it is the same.
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  #693  
Old 10-30-2008, 09:18 PM
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Morally, I wouldn't be against a flat tax concerning people who actually work their ass off. If that's verifyable in any way... But for people living on economic rent only, no way.


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  #694  
Old 10-30-2008, 09:31 PM
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Here a very interesting article from the Bible, THE ECONOMIST:

The flat-tax revolution
Fine in theory, but it will never happen. Oh really?

THE more complicated a country's tax system becomes, the easier it is for governments to make it more complicated still, in an accelerating process of proliferating insanity—until, perhaps, a limit of madness is reached and a spasm of radical simplification is demanded. In 2005, many of the world's rich countries seem far along this curve. The United States, which last simplified its tax code in 1986, and which spent the next two decades feverishly unsimplifying it, may soon be coming to a point of renewed fiscal catharsis. Other rich countries, with a tolerance for tax-code sclerosis even greater than America's, may not be so far behind. Revenue must be raised, of course. But is there no realistic alternative to tax codes which, as they discharge that sad but necessary function, squander resources on an epic scale and grind the spirit of the helpless taxpayer as well?

The answer is yes: there is indeed an alternative, and experience is proving that it is an eminently realistic one. The experiment started in a small way in 1994, when Estonia became the first country in Europe to introduce a “flat tax” on personal and corporate income. Income is taxed at a single uniform rate of 26%: no schedule of rates, no deductions. The economy has flourished. Others followed: first, Latvia and Lithuania, Estonia's Baltic neighbours; later Russia (with a rate of 13% on personal income), then Slovakia (19% on personal and corporate income). One of Poland's centre-right opposition parties is campaigning for a similar code (with a rate of 15%). So far eight countries have followed Estonia's example (see article). An old idea that for decades elicited the response, “Fine in theory, just not practical in the real world,” seems to be working as well in practice as it does on the blackboard.

Pure and applied
Practical types who said that flat taxes cannot work offer a further instant objection, once they are shown such taxes working—namely, that they are unfair. Enlightened countries, it is argued, have “progressive” tax systems, requiring the rich to forfeit a bigger share of their incomes in tax than the poor are called upon to pay. A flat tax seems to rule this out in principle.

Not so. A flat tax on personal incomes combines a threshold (that is, an exempt amount) with a single rate of tax on all income above it. The progressivity of such a system can be varied within wide limits using just these two variables. Under systems such as America's, or those operating in most of western Europe, the incentives for the rich to avoid tax (legally or otherwise) are enormous; and the opportunities to do so, which arise from the very complexity of the codes, are commensurately large. So it is unsurprising to discover, as experience suggests, that the rich usually pay about as much tax under a flat-tax regime as they do under an orthodox code.

So much for the two main objections. What then are the advantages of being very simple-minded when it comes to tax? Simplicity of course is a boon in its own right. The costs merely of administering a conventionally clotted tax system are outrageous. Estimates for the United States, whose tax regime, despite the best efforts of Congress, is by no means the world's most burdensome, put the costs of compliance, administration and enforcement between 10% and 20% of revenue collected. (That sum, by the way, is equivalent to between one-quarter and one-half of the government's budget deficit.)

Though it is impossible to be precise, that direct burden is almost certainly as nothing compared with the broader economic costs caused by the government's interfering so pervasively in the allocation of resources. A pathological optimist, or somebody nostalgic for Soviet central planning, might argue that the whole point of the myriad breaks, deductions, allowances, concessions, reliefs and assorted other tax expenditures that clog rich countries' tax systems—requiring total revenues to be gathered from a narrower base of taxpayers at correspondingly higher and more distorting rates—is to improve economic efficiency. The whole idea, you see, is to allocate resources more intelligently. Yes, well. Take a look at the current United States tax code, or just at one session of Congress's worth of tax-gifts to favourite constituencies, and try to keep a straight face while saying that.

They cannot be serious

Once tax codes have degenerated to the extent they have in most rich countries, laden with so many breaks and exceptions that they retain nothing of their original shape, even the pretence of any interior logic can be dispensed with. No tax break is too narrow, too squalid, too funny, to be excluded on those grounds: everybody is at it, so why not join in? At the other extreme, the simpler the system, the more such manoeuvres offend, and the easier it is to retain the simplicity.

In Britain, election notwithstanding, tax simplification is nowhere on the agenda: why not? George Bush has at least appointed a commission to look into tax reform. But its terms of reference are so narrow that it could not suggest a flat tax even if it wanted to. This is a great pity. A flat tax would not eliminate the need for spending control; it would not deal with the impending financial distress of Social Security and Medicare; it would not even settle the arguments about the so-called consumption tax (since in principle a flat tax could take as its base either all income, or income net of savings, in which case it would act as a consumption tax). There are things it cannot do and questions it does not answer. But the gains from a radical simplification of the tax system would be very great. The possibility should not be excluded at the outset.

It is true that the flat-tax revolutionaries of central and eastern Europe are more inclined to radicalism than their politically maturer neighbours to the west and across the Atlantic. Mobilising support for sensible change is far harder in those more advanced places—but not impossible. In tax reform, as 1986 showed, the radical programme can suddenly look easier to implement than the timid package of piecemeal changes. Now and then, the bigger the idea, and the simpler the idea, the easier it is to roll over the opposition. The flat-tax idea is big enough and simple enough to be worth taking seriously.
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  #695  
Old 10-30-2008, 09:47 PM
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Makes sense.

But there also some downsides to it, if applied too strictly that is. For example some deductions are important for a society to hold itself together, like the ones for charity & non profit organisation donations. How would these organisations survive such a reform? Same thing for mortgages interests or medecine expenses...


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  #696  
Old 10-30-2008, 09:56 PM
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Makes sense.

deductions are important for a society to hold itself together, like the ones for charity & non profit organisation donations. How would these organisations survive such a reform?
Ponrauil
I'm telling you how Romania does that (we have a 16% flat tax on corporate and personal income). Every citizen is allowed to redirect 2% of his taxes to one ore more NGOs or charities, by simply mentioning the name of the foundation and its bank account. This has actually created some form of market in which NGOs compete with each other. For lots of them revenues have increased dramatically. The ones that were useless disappeared. It's still a flat tax. There's ways and ways of finding solutions. Most importantly, create a competitive market environment.
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  #697  
Old 10-30-2008, 10:05 PM
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I don't like the idea of a competitive environment when it comes to solidarity and charity. It's nonsense in my book.

I understand how the useless or fake organisations are wiped out and that's good, but I guess the less popular ones disappear as well, or struggle a whole lot more, with no consideration of how relevant they might be. That's not solidarity.


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  #698  
Old 10-30-2008, 10:12 PM
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I don't like the idea of a competitive environment when it comes to solidarity and charity. It's nonsense in my book.

I understand how the useless or fake organisations are wiped out and that's good, but I guess the less popular ones disappear as well, or struggle a whole lot more, with no consideration of how relevant they might be. That's not solidarity.


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Wait wait wait. Taxes are not their only source of revenue. They still get money from donors, government programs, international institutions, etc. It just an extra source of revenue. I am just explaining how a flat tax system can even help the non-profit sector.
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Old 10-30-2008, 10:15 PM
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Wait wait wait. Taxes are not their only source of revenue. They still get money from donors, government programs, international institutions, etc. It just an extra source of revenue. I am just explaining how a flat tax system can even help the non-profit sector.
Ok then


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  #700  
Old 10-31-2008, 12:26 AM
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What makes a flat tax system special is that there's very few exceptions. But there are exceptions. Additionally, a flat tax is usually around the same level (if not lower, see Lithuania) as what would have been the lowest tax level in a progressive system. There's no change for the very poor, really. And one more reason, flat tax increases state revenue which can again be reinvested to help the people who live on peanuts.



i am not going to comment on this. If that's your moral perspective, than very well. If think it's extremely unfair.


Why??? The rich pay in absolute terms more than the poor as you have pointed out in your very own example. It's not biased at all. It's the only NEUTRAL tax.



It is not biased against the rich per se. It is biased against the hard-working, the over-achievers, the people who make the word go around. Taking half their money reduces incentives, reduces productivity, lessens the number of start-ups, has tremendously negative effects on innovation...and and and. Progressive tax is playing Robin Hood. It may be noble, but it's theft in the end. A flat tax is fair, and leaving out the morals, what you don't see is that IT WORKS. The aim of taxation is to increase state revenue. A flat tax will do and ethical dilemmas are just tools to win elections.
The thing about salary - the first £50k for example is far more important than the second £50k. The third £50k is even less important than that. From this point of view a flat tax system is not fair, a progressive one is.
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