Abortion

That is correct - as far as it goes. But the facts are that (in this country at least) the statistics suck. Any female deciding on her future would be well advised to check out those statistics before having several children that she is not able to support. Statistics show that the men just don't support the children in a divorce unless forced to by court order. This may be a generalization (and it is) but the high rate of single parent families show that a women should be prepared to support any children she should have.

Actually ponrauil - this is a bit of a different argument that the straight abortion discussion. I still feel that is my sole decision as it is my body in question. Don't give me the "every sperm is sacred" argument either. You guys waste sperm involuntarily while sleeping. I truly feel that until the child is able to live on its own - outside my body - the decision is mine.

I'm sure the courts could have a field day determining when it's possible to live on it's own - and perhaps they should. I'm even all for keeping the number conservative and low. But until then - it's my decision. Now - would I discuss this decision with my longtime partner - of course. I'm grateful I never had to make the decision believe me. Would I discuss the decision with a one night stand (if I happened to have one)? No - I would not.

Kathleen

I agree when it comes to NOT having a child, and therefore aborting.
When it's about keeping it, however, it should be a joint decision any time it's possible, which happens a lot more often than "perfect worlds".


Where have I said anything like that?

And I've never wasted sperm involuntarily!!!


Ponrauil

Here in Germany we have a law that you can make an abortion until the 12th week but you need to go to an advisory service to learn about possible helps when you get the child. Without this advisory a legal abortion is not possible.

When the kid has a very big handicap or the life of the mother is in danger if she stays pregnand the abortion can be make later than the 12th week, don't know how long though.

I find this law good, the people get the help if they need it and decide to get the child, but the woman also can decide not to want the child and let make the abortion.

My personal opinion is nearly as Kathleens. It's my body and my decision.

It's still that the woman is the one who stays at home and raises the child and has the main responsibility for it. And how many men run away when a child is there or marriages that get divorced and the men are away and leave the woman alone with the child but without alimony.

Cuchulainn, I see you are from Ireland. Isn't it still in Ireland that divorces aren't allowed or at least that the law just changed recently? In most parts of the western world, not only in the USA, at least 1/3 of marriages get divorced. Here in Germany meanwhile even each second. And it's not that easy here to marry as in the USA, meaning going to a chappel and get married rightaway. It needs at least a few weeks. So "Las VEgas"-marriages a la Britney Spears or JBJ aren't possible here.

For you a marriage is a sacred thing. Well, I'm not religious. For me being married first of all means saving taxes. I could live with my hubby without being married, it wouldn't make any difference,beside the taxes.

Objection your honor.

I honestly don't think that the divorce rate is responsible for single parenthood and/or a sign of deadbeat dads. In fact, I think that divorced fathers have a rather high percentage (overall) of being 'responsible'. Possible due to the laws in place. I also don't think that women consider a potential divorce as grounds for an abortion. In fact, I think the irresponsibility of the male gender is evident in the many fatherless children in this country. Men who impregnant a woman and disappear. Men who never go so far and commit and sign papers. Men who don't know who they slept with the night before. Women who cling to any beings with a penis in hopes of a better future, only to be left pregnant and alone.

... and she is the one that will be facing the stigma of society of being a 'single parent' and she is the one that will have to bear the consequences of the impact that being a single parent has on her career and job prospects...

That's not what I was saying.

I believe that people contemplating abortion do not live in a 'perfect world' - regardless of how big or how small this 'perfect world' actually is.

The problem is though, that often one doesn't know she is pregnant until 8 or 10 weeks - which doesn't leave much time for advisory services and general contemplation.

Aside the fact that I don't see what an advisory service has to offer to a rape victim or a teenage girl that just found out she is pregnant and the cute boyfriend has taken off. It offers nothing but insult to injury. How about sending the fleeting fathers to be to advisory services instead?

In a philosophical sense, sure. However, until you stay awake all night because of horrid heartburn and wake up almost incapacitated with pain due to a head stuck under your ribcage and when every step you take makes you think your crutch breaks through, and when you are passed over for that promotion cause your are a working mother (and thus only work for the fun of it), I just don't see where your half comes in. []

There was a big discussion back then when the law changed. This was a compromise to prevent that women decide short termed. In this advisory service they talk about public help and stuff. But you are right, it is something that has to me make to get a legal abortion. I don't think that a woman changes her decision ofter this interview. It's not that the interviewer can deny the abortion. The woman just needs a piece of paper on that stands that she was at this interview before she goes to the doctor for the abortion. The catholic church in Germany even isn't allowed anymore to make these interviews since it's not the decision of the interviewer if the abortion is allowed but just and only the decision of the woman.

how about the bit where we have to listen to everything that happenes to you! every pain you go through we get a blow by blow account!! anyway "in a perfect world" as someone put it the men are their to help the women through it day by day! at least i hope to be with my wife!

half mine so half my responsability!

Ok, but when I cross that idea that a perfect world doesn't exist for people contemplating abortion with your first post in this thread stating that in a perfect world the father's word should be considered... I come to the conclusion that you believe the father's word should not be considered.

I disagree.

I also find it quite ironic that women like you, who bash (and rightly so) some men for leaving women and children behind, do not want the responsible men's word to be considered when it comes to such an important decision. Do you want us to be there or not? If you want us to play our part then let us.
There's a torturous enough reflexion to go through and enough potential guilt and remorse to share to be at least two to carry the load of such a decision.


Ponrauil

personally its wrong i think that especally with these chav heads you see these days thaty have made their bed let them lie in it!

if your daft enough to get inpregnatedor get someone impregnated then its your own fault and you should deal with it


the only thing i will be fairly leanient with is the thing where the woman may die or be severly injured during birth and abortion is the only prevention.

When we have to be supportive regardless of all the hormonal consequences on your physical and mental state?

Surely all that suffering is compensated by the special relation a mother has with her newborn, isn't it? A father will never have that.

Seriously there is no doubt the pregnancy gives women a deserved edge on a lot of issues regarding children. But if you look at it objectively it's what follows the birth (you know... Life?), when men are supposed and able to stand up to their responsibilities as much as women, that should matter the most.

Ponrauil