Bush in 30 seconds contest

LoL thats perfectly true Im afraid

who the hell is little johnny??!

and can I just remind Deborah that "freedom of speech/expression" is not just limited to America..so theres no need for the explanation.

err, thats what freedom of speech is!

I find it quite funny that so many people (yanks) moan about their own people complaining about a president without a real mandate, who also happens to look like a chimp, running round the world causing havoc...yet thats exactly what "AMERICA STANDS FOR" (sic)
I think quite a large number of Americans need to refresh themselves as to what Freedom of speech actually is

Im going to use that quote once more as its quite possibly one of the funniest things Ive read in a while

ie, FREEDOM OF SPEECH MAY ONLY BE USED IN PRAISE OF YOUR WONDEROUS COUNTRY YOU INFIDEL PIGS

Spunkywho,

The Time/CNN poll said Bush would win elections if they were happening today.
Bush and his administration recently admitted out loud they never had proof of WMD in Iraq nore proof of any link between Saddam Hussein and Al Quaida, when they insisted they had to justify the intervention.
And I don't think anyone can believe the US went in there just to free the good people of Irak from Saddam.
So what concrete reasons are we left with? Oil. It is fact, not propaganda, that Dick Cheney, ie, has interests in Oil companies that will be part of Iraq's reconstruction...
I believe a lot of americans are aware of that, and also of Bush's internal politics record. Still in polls he wins elections. Why?

Ponrauil

No need for an explanation? Never said it was limited to America. I didn't know I needed your permission to post my thoughts. You know, my freedom of speech.

People keep thinking of freedom of speech as some sort of inalienable right. That's absolutely not true. Freedom of speech is granted by the government. A right that's granted isn't inalienable, since it can be revoked. People are going to say I'm way out in left field, but they're wrong. Just look at the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It took us +100 years after we dreamed those rights up to stop taking them away from black people. There are no "rights". "Rights" are just freedoms that the government has decided (for the moment) not to take away.

For the most part, people can say whatever they want here (in the US). When I say for the most part, I mean when it doesn't come into major conflict with the US government. I just read an article that said that the FBI is compiling dossiers on anti-war groups to "see if any of them cross the line into extremism". They also were talking about infiltrating the groups and telling the people in them that the FBI was monitoring them. Does that sound like freedom of speech to you? Say what you want, as long as you don't say anything too damaging about the current political establishment, otherwise we'll try and scare away you supporters and keep records on you? I've said this before, but it bears repeating. Go look up COINTELPRO from the 60s and 70s. Look up the USA/Patriot act and the Patriot II/Victory Act. You'll see how fleeting "rights" can be at times.

As for the Dixie Chicks, I support their right to say whatever they want. I also support the right of private radio stations to quit playing their music. They made the choice to say what they did, and they can't expect that what they say won't have consequences.

I love the freedom of speech that we have the momentary "right" to in this country. May that moment last forever.

Adrian

I am NOT disputing the reason for the war. In fact, the reasons you put forth are rather mild

You are right about the reasons and what the white house admitted to. You are wrong to assume people believe it. Looking at the people supporting Bush and his entourage, I am flabbergasted to see how they can blindly ignore facts and even though Bush pretty much agrees to lying, people (some) still believe the original reasons put forth. Ignorance is bliss! Very, very sad.

I still don't give much credence to the poll as I don't know the actual questions asked and the population polled. Any poll can be scewed to present a biased outcome. It can work both ways.

I refuse to think the majority of voters in this country would vote for Bush when the majority didn't even vote for him in the last elections. Unless I see the questions asked in the poll, the date, and an analysis of population polled I will not pay any heed to it as it will be biased. That is the whole point of polls.

Again, I don't dispute your reasons for why the white house started the war, in fact I could go a bit farther and put it less mildly.

What offended my in your original post was to insinuate that most people believe that crap the white house puts out. Just because this country is going through a dark political phase, doesn't mean the people are dum or ignorant, nor does it mean that most people support that leadership.

god, this kept me amused all day

this is my personal favorite of this thread - right on

I understand it's hard to consider. What do you think are the real proportions of pro vs anti Bush? I might insist too much for some people but I know what is going on is actually worrying a lot of people, if not in the world, at least in Europe and Canada.
The worrying thing is not only Bush's actions and words, but also that it seems american people either believe him or resign, see what I mean?

Same for the UK, it seemed like a very larged majority of the people were against the war before it started, but a short majority actually supported it once it had started, and still does now they know Blair lied as much as Bush.

Before I get tagged as anti-US/UK, I'll state the example of Chirac that is known to be a thief and liar, that a large majority of french wanted to go to jail, which would have happened if he hadn't been reelected (he only got 19% of votes after the 1st round in the last presidentials, the worst ever score for a president running for another 5 year "reign"). After the second round he became the saviour of democraty (when his only opponent didn't leave us much choice...). So the french are as weird as anyone.

How/Why do people get so resigned and/or versatile?

Ponrauil

I think Ill wait untill every piece of dirt in Iraq has been uncovered before I brand Blair a liar...besides, a evil regime has gone..long live freedom (etc)