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  #21  
Old 05-31-2005, 05:15 PM
Jim Bon Jovi Jim Bon Jovi is offline
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cranks?

Or maybe there's just an inkling of a chance that the people don't actually want it or need it? Crazy thought eh? You think it's important, i don't, not alot of people do here, who decided that you're right and we're wrong for having a differing opinion?

When the EEC began it was basically a "small" entity aiming at helping trade in post war europe and preventing another war in europe breaking out. It should remain that IMO. we have our own countrie,s cultures, social and political leanings and problems to worry about ourselves without being involved with others.

Now they're just determined to be a counter weight against the US which is pointless IMO and China doesn't even come into the situation. it's been an isolationist nation for over half a century, even with globalisation finally moving it in the right direction, i don't see them changing their foreign policy (or lack of it) anytime soon.

On a cooler note, I'm away on holiday a month today so I'll be taking full advantage of the weakened euro tomorrow
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  #22  
Old 05-31-2005, 07:25 PM
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Originally Posted by UKjovi
VOTE NO!!!It cant work. its a waste of time . how can it work? we are all different , we all have different cultures . we do things differently so how can it work? how can you expect english to do the same as french for example? its not possible . its all a load of pipe dreams
We're different - so what? Does that mean that we can't agree on anything? Plus, as much as you islanders like to think that we're not that different. The basics are the same.

And yes I do expect all of us to behave normally on a few things that are not so far-fetched and that will probably work for everyone's best interests.
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  #23  
Old 05-31-2005, 07:37 PM
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Originally Posted by ponrauil
Ok, before I give my opinion, let me get a few things straight.

- I'm very surprised to see people like Alex or Keeper fall for easy generalisations such as the "no" voters are idiots that didn't read the text. It's wrong and unfair to say this. I have close ones that are as pro-european as can be, far from idiots, they read the text and yet voted against it. Do you actually think the "yes" voters read it? Did you?
I didn't call anyone an idiot. I know they're not, but I just don't get what they're thinking about. USA and China are going to take over Europe any moment and we'll see then.

I did read the text, and I asked questions to experts when I didn't understand. As far as I understood it's what every constitution will say and I didn't find anything worth repelling.

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- Valery Giscard d'Estaing didn't write the text. He directed the group of European representatives from all EU countries that wrote the text. Huge difference.
Wrong choice of words but I swear that's what I meant But at nay rate he's an important figure in France and you'd think valued too. But apparently not.

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- The French prime minister is chosen by the President among the members of the the political party that holds the majority of deputy seats in the National Assembly. The Front National, Le Pen's party, has 0 seats. It also has 0 seats in the Senate. Clear enough?
Clear enough. But as I said he's always hovering around, and he scares me and last time it was all very, very close.

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2 - France would lose more of it's cultural identity, becoming another state in a vast federation.
Not just France. All of the European countries. Is that so very awful? And as for the cutural identity - I guess that would depend on the country and what they did to maintain it.

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2 - France can't defend it's interests alone.
Again, neither does France or any other European country. It's working shoulder to shoulder or perish here. China is coming...

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3 - A "no" would weaken France's position in the EU.
That's not going to happen. Ever.

I don't think a Consitution is really going to change the way things are working. That's just paperwork. Things are going to carry on as usual. Only the external part - the way things look from the outside - will look weakened. Look at the euro plummetting after having done so great. What's the point in causing our own damage? The EU is a reality anyway. If they wanted out they shouldn't have entered in the first place. Same for the UK. But as far as I remember France was one of the countries that got it all started.
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  #24  
Old 05-31-2005, 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by UKjovi
haha but its us that drive on the right side of the road :P
Sorry to tell you this, but you're the ones that drive on the left... The rest of the world drives on the right side.

Ice
Apparently historically speaking it's them that drive correctly.
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Old 05-31-2005, 07:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Bon Jovi

On a cooler note, I'm away on holiday a month today so I'll be taking full advantage of the weakened euro tomorrow
Cool for you :P

But at any rate I've repeatedly heard many Brittons complain about the pound being so very high. It's causing many industries and factories to have to close down because they can't compete with other countries. There's an ugly side to everything :P
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  #26  
Old 05-31-2005, 07:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
I know also people who are very intelligent, read a lot about the constitution and still voted no. Which is ok for me, since they obviously thought it over. The majority however, didn't. I'm pretty certain about that.
But that majority that didn't read the text is IMO equally divided between yes and no as an answer.
There are as many stupid "yes"s as idiotic "no"s.

Ponrauil
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  #27  
Old 05-31-2005, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Jim Bon Jovi
cranks?
Yes, in the way that you always need to go another way than everybody else.

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Or maybe there's just an inkling of a chance that the people don't actually want it or need it? Crazy thought eh? You think it's important, i don't, not alot of people do here, who decided that you're right and we're wrong for having a differing opinion?
Crazy thought indeed. You often refer to the grand scheme of things when you clearly miss it here - in my opinion, of course.
No one decides this, that's why it's called democracy.

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we have our own countrie,s cultures, social and political leanings and problems to worry about ourselves without being involved with others.
The point is that we need to solve these problems WITH others being involved and NOT on our own since most of them are globalisation caused problems that will not be solved within one country's borders.

It doesn't mean at all that you need to give up national cultures or something, just like it didn't mean to give up regional cultures in the states of a federal republic.
It's about Europeans finding a corporate basis to work on as a unity.
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  #28  
Old 05-31-2005, 08:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UKjovi
VOTE NO!!!It cant work. its a waste of time . how can it work? we are all different , we all have different cultures . we do things differently so how can it work? how can you expect english to do the same as french for example? its not possible . its all a load of pipe dreams
that's what the white used to say about blacks.....
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  #29  
Old 05-31-2005, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ponrauil
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
I know also people who are very intelligent, read a lot about the constitution and still voted no. Which is ok for me, since they obviously thought it over. The majority however, didn't. I'm pretty certain about that.
But that majority that didn't read the text is IMO equally divided between yes and no as an answer.
There are as many stupid "yes"s as idiotic "no"s.

Ponrauil
No, it isn't. At least not over here. Most of the yes voters can back their votes up with decent arguments whereas this is a problem for quite some no voters.
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  #30  
Old 05-31-2005, 08:28 PM
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Jovimimi Jovimimi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alex
We (the Dutch) are having a similar referendum next Wednesday and I'm afraid the 'no camp' only got bigger and more confident by the French 'no'; at least we're not the only idiots who voted no.

I'm probably voting yes.
agreed.... I am very sorry about this No but it's not from me
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