Flame Ice

letitrock · #31 02-10-2003, 06:50 PM

i'm not necessarily for using x-files or not as evidence... but a lot of that programme is about the need to balance:

the unexplainable (whether UFOs or God) versus science and knowledge

Ice - it's silly to dismiss literature and tv programmes etc from opening the mind to new possibilities...

we only use something ridiculous like 10% of our mind, but there have been rare cases of people being able to utilise 30% including an Indian mathemetician who on his death bed on hearing the nurse say something about the number 123.4035235 or something like that.... told her that it is the only number that is a product of itself ... and yad a yad a etc....

and you keep asking for contradictions, i remember mike doing a post where he listed about 30 of them!!! in the big argument that was locked...

you're clutching at straws now, just accept other peoples' views without having to be a martyr to the idiot cause by trying to prove the majority they are wrong...

they/we probably are often - but every single post i see on here i don't agree with (i probably agree with 10% of what i see here and it's the same for most) - but we don't make it our cause in life to put it right

Iceman · #32 02-10-2003, 07:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by letitrock

but i do not what you are saying, and the problem is that believers claim 100% there is a God - and yet it is a leap of faith - the emphasis on faith suggests that it is something you believe rather than something that can be proven otherwise it would not be called a leap of faith.

I said it was a question of everyone's views and beliefs. There is no god as far as sciene and the truth goes. Everyone's free to BELIEVE what they want, but no proof for or against exist, so the ultimate truth, right now, today, as we see it, there is no God. Opinions and beliefs are totally different things.

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I think the way you handled the MC and Poision post shows how you started an argument since all i said was that they are not musically talented and then i got "flamed" by Ice - and that's how this whole bloody thing started.

You didn't get flamed. I said "you shouldn't judge a band just because you don't like them." I can quote myself if necessary. If that's starting an argument, then it is. Where as McRock came in with a statement like "you should certainly listen to me." So who's the one starting arguments?

UFO's and Gods are all about beliefs. Until proven otherwise.

Quote:

and you keep asking for contradictions, i remember mike doing a post where he listed about 30 of them!!! in the big argument that was locked...

How come I haven't seen that? All he contradicted was himself.

And the fact that a person only uses about 10% of his brain is a fact. No one has been proven to use more, though it would be possible. And I'm not saying you shouldn't use literature or TV-shows as mind opener, but saying that a fictional TV - series proves a point of beliefs and truths is just wrong.

Ice

Jovian · #33 02-10-2003, 08:10 PM

Ice, just because you or science in general have not yet managed to find any tangible proof about the existence of God, it doesn't mean that God or some sort of Supreme Being wouldn't exist. It just means that as of yet, there is no proof or concrete evidence about the existence of a Supreme Being -- but since us humans are only able to utilise a small portion of our intellectual capabilities, it might just be that we haven't discovered such proof or evidence yet, that "seeing" that proof would require us to be able to use a considerably larger portion of our brain and consequently of our intellectual capabilities.

And as for the X-Files, I gotta agree with the others here -- that show is about a LOT more than the mere cases Mulder & Scully or Doggett & that other female agent investigate. Yes, it's fiction, some would even say it's science fiction, but the general notions about faith or beliefs versus science and hard facts and knowledge are not fictional. And the X-Filish mistrust in the goverment is not completely bogus either -- just think about stuff like Watergate, Lee Harvey Oswald shooting JFK or the way different governments have reacted to the Gulf War Syndrome, the unexplained illnesses many many Gulf War veterans have gone through and are still going through. I have no doubt that goverments throughout the world wouldn't be hiding certain things from their people, things that some government official deem too "controversial" to be publicised.

No wonder Mulder's favourite phrase is "Trust No One".

(The other favourites being, of course, "The Truth Is Out There" and "SCULLY!!!!" and "WHERE IS SHE???!", LOL.)

To sum up a bit: Not all facts can be proven "beyond reasonable doubt", the "leap of faith" factor does have its place, but that doesn't mean that opinions can be counted as facts, no matter how strong they are. Without knowing the people here rather well in real life you really can't say much about them simply because of their spelling mistakes or other such things -- some people just aren't as "anal" as for example I am about spelling mistakes, but that doesn't mean that they'd be dyslexic or stupid. It just means that they can't be bothered with their possible spelling mistakes when they're writing on a message board in the internet. And without living someone else's life or knowing that person in real life and observing their life closely from aside, you can't really say much about that particular person's musical endeavours either. Cause you simply don't know what's really going on in their life, the only things you know are the ones you've read on this board or in e-mails or PMs. And that can hardly give you the full picture, you know.

And just FYI, I'm using the third person plural pronoun "them" (or "their") on purpose when referring to a single person, the reason being the lack of a neutral third person singular pronoun in English. As a woman I catecorigally refuse to refer to both men and women with the masculine pronoun "he" (or "his"), and expressions like "s/he" and "her/his" are, well, kinda clumsy.

Iceman · #34 02-10-2003, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jovian

And as for the X-Files, I gotta agree with the others here -- that show is about a LOT more than the mere cases Mulder & Scully or Doggett & that other female agent investigate.

Anyone who really thinks a TV - series is somesort of life guide is out of their mind. 'Nuff said.

Quote:

To sum up a bit: Not all facts can be proven "beyond reasonable doubt", the "leap of faith" factor does have its place, but that doesn't mean that opinions can be counted as facts, no matter how strong they are.

Wrong. All facts CAN be proven, that is what makes them facts. If you can't, well, then they are either opinions or beliefs. And I've always said opinions do not count as facts.

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Cause you simply don't know what's really going on in their life, the only things you know are the ones you've read on this board or in e-mails or PMs. And that can hardly give you the full picture, you know.

You think I don't know that? Explain to me, why do others forget this. They've said loads of stuff about me and they don't even have a clue. All I did was post this one thread to keep anyone who's not interested out of this.

Ice

Jovian · #35 02-10-2003, 09:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iceman

Anyone who really thinks a TV - series is somesort of life guide is out of their mind. 'Nuff said.

Nobody here is saying that, Ice... We're simply acknowledging that even fictional TV series can have "deeper meanings", so to speak, and that they can be based on a little something more than simply the screenwriters' imagination.

If you don't like the idea of people "believing" in the X-Files (or, God forbid, Star Trek), think about the ER, for example. Fictional, screenwritten and dramatised, yes. But completely based on fiction? Never. There might not be a Dr. Carter or Dr. Kovac or nurse Abby in real life, but the series itself is as factual as a fictional TV series can get. If you take out the added dramatisation and rush, the mistakes in that series are few and far between. And that's how it has always been. Even the Finnish subtitler of the show is one of the leading experts in her field, medical terminology and its translations.

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Wrong. All facts CAN be proven, that is what makes them facts. If you can't, well, then they are either opinions or beliefs.

Eh, that is exactly the dichotomy the X-Files is dealing with (well, one of the things it's dealing with), the question of what is fact and what is fiction or belief. What kind of proof do we need to have before we can accept something as a fact? And what happens if the proof in itself is fictional or depends to a certain extent on our beliefs? If we can't trust our senses and our instincts and what the government tells us, what can we trust?

The deeper we go into things like quantum physics and mechanics, the less we can trust even on the most profound truths we know, such as the basic laws of physics. If gravity can be overturned, would that make for example Newton's and Einstein's ideas fiction or even opinions?

Mike McRock · #36 02-10-2003, 09:50 PM

All facts CAN be proven,

Go on then hot shot, prove to me that God doesn't exist. i've only ever read one THEORY that explains how a God coudn't exist, so this is not a truth. If you can't prove there isn't a god, by your defifnitino it can't be stated as a fact....

I think it was a mathmatition, can't remember his name, who said.... wait I have the quote here,...

"The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible" - Arthur C.Clarke

This sums up, we don't discover anything unless we explore beyond what we know. Therefore, in order to go beyond what we persieve as the truth, we have to look beyand it, into what we can't answer, or explain, and therefor if something can't be proven it can't be considered to be a fact!

Iceman · #37 02-10-2003, 10:11 PM

TV - series are fiction. Even if they have some basis in truth, in real life, they are fiction and should be regarded as such. Especially the ones dealing with things non-existant like the X-files. You'll probably say that Superman is believable and we should learn from it. Face it, it's all entertainment, no more, no less.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike McRock

Go on then hot shot, prove to me that God doesn't exist.

Prove me he does.

Quote:

i've only ever read one THEORY that explains how a God coudn't exist, so this is not a truth. If you can't prove there isn't a god, by your defifnitino it can't be stated as a fact....

If you can't prove there is, it's still a fact, there isn't a God because it can't be proven. If you can't prove something exists, it doesn't. Imaginary numbers do not EXIST, they are imaginary, like the name says. You use a belief when you use them. You can not prove there is one. Not really, it's all just assumptions.

Quote:

"The only way of finding the limits of the possible is by going beyond them into the impossible" - Arthur C.Clarke

Clarke is an author, not a mathematician. He has studied mathematics, but he's a writer.

Quote:

This sums up, we don't discover anything unless we explore beyond what we know. Therefore, in order to go beyond what we persieve as the truth, we have to look beyand it, into what we can't answer, or explain, and therefor if something can't be proven it can't be considered to be a fact!

Yes, that's what I said. If you can't prove something, it's not a fact. It doesn't rule out exploration and science, but anything yet to be proven is not a fact. Even if you were sure there was a planet closer to the sun than Mercury, it isn't a fact until you prove it. There is no God until you prove there is.

Ice

Mike · #38 02-10-2003, 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike McRock

wow, can anybody say democracy????

We have a topic that basically has a go at Iceman
Then we have a topic that's basically Iceman having a go at everybody else.

Yet, we only see one of these locked????

Why can't u ppl complain by PM to a moderator???

That reply was very soon after it was posted - & the chances r none of us has read it yet.

This is the first time I have seen this post & have only read the first few posts as it is the same old stuff over & over again.

The previous post in question was locked because it was boring & immature.

......As is this........

Mike

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