let's talk about george bush

Check. What is slightly left wing is that - certainly in super communist England, that we pay for it through higher taxes. People that work in the NHS are paid in terms of salary. People that run the NHS are paid larger ridiculous salaries. They then proceed to spend that money in a free market capitalist economy (well, kind of).

Not too long ago, they used to pay us to go to Uni. Either way, going to Uni gives you a chance to earn a larger salary etc....

Check

On a scale, USA is still very much on the right.

Well, they adhere pretty well to those 20th century communist party platforms.

I'm off for work. Back at midnight.

Adrian

Sharing some characteristics with those on the far-left does not make one a communist.

Guaranteed health care is not free health-care. Everyone will pay through their taxes eventually. The majority would pay more-or-less the same cash, probably endure waiting lists, but would be assured treatment (albeit with a waiting list for non-essential procedures) whatever their circumstances.

That the wealthy should support those less well off is basic human compassion.

For those that wish to pay, private health care is still available.

You decry "free universal health care, free universal education & resonsibility-free wealth care".

Responsibility-free health care is an exaggeration. No one will forgive you this fear, but it is far from any left-wing position. As for health care and education, do you deny that a society will be all the greater for universal access to health and knowledge?

Whether right or left, we already have free access to universal defense. How is education so different?

The difference in opinion seems to be that you view people as naturally wanting to take advantage of charity and well being, where as those on the left want to give others a second chance and trust them to make the most of an opportunity, for the benefit of all.

Ultimately, George Bush has lost respect entirely due to his self-serving attitudes. People of all political ideals have turned against him because time and time again he has demonstrated total unimaginable contempt. Never before have the true motives of our rulers been exposed so.

As for Iraq - I'm not qualified to say whether the invasion was a good idea - saddam after all would have become Hitler had he the skills and the opportunity - but the dishonesty about the motives and the complete lack of competence makes me boil.

A cop-out, I know, but.....

Once again, you're way off the mark.

Clinton wasn't a socialist and, FYI, Jeltsin wasn't a socialist! You claim Clinton is a socialist, you claim the democratic party are socialists, but you don't even seem to know what the word means.

It's very tempting to say that you have very little knowledge of how the world works, or even how different political systems work as you bring your ignorence up in every "political" post you make. But because you're young, live in a sheltered environment long way from outside influence, under the roof of your father who seems to feed you these ideas and have never even visited another country, let alone a state, I'll forgive you.

But for ****s sake, learn. Go to a library and learn. And not from the books your father tells you to read, but the books he says you shouldn't touch. The books that he says will turn you into a socialist or a commie. Never trust anyone, learn for yourself. And learn from everyone, not just the ones you like.

If you can't stand in someone elses shoes, you don't know shit. If you can't see the situation from someone elses point of view, your point of view is worthless. Unless you see the situation as a whole, with the good and the bad, you better not look at all.

Ice

It seems like you, Adrian, are afraid socialism. If it is soo bad, why can't you counter argue it instead of just telling us how bad and stupid it is?

You don't even know what it is!!

(Ice rules)

Yes - Ice does rule - his comments are right on.

As part of some background though - my husband's family lives in Wisconsin. All of the ones that I have met - and their friends - think just as Adrian does. Anyone who does not agree with them completely is a commie - or a socialist. That is actually the worst thing they can say about someone. They simply haven't gotten past the 20th century cold war - and they don't seem to want to either.

Starting a war for profit and murder by the present administration seems to be ok with them though.

** I need to edit this to point out that Wisconsin did vote Democratic in the last election so that clearly not everyone in the state thinks like that. There is someone else on this board from Wisconsin who doesn't think that way at all so I shouldn't generalize**

Kathleen

Ice:Nobody tells me what I should or can read. I plowed through Nozick (sp?) at age 11. The philosopher Daniel Quinn is about as left as they come, and he's one of my favorites, has been since 13. Communist Manifesto, Das Kapital (though it was like chewing concrete and I don't remember enough of it to say much on it)...along with fiction classics...all of the James Fenimore Cooper books, Les Miserables at age 14. Mig Pilot. A Day In The Life Of Ivan Den...whatever. Crime And Punishment. Classics like Dune and Battlefield Earth too. Girl fiction too, like Emma and Little Women. I know it pains you to think I'm well read and an independent thinker, but I am. All those books, I picked up all by myself. Nobody tells me what to read, what to think.

erik:I argue counter to it, people call me a cold hearted bastard. Been there, done that, inspired some real animosity. Arguing the supremacy individual rights and how wealth redistribution works counter to them is difficult to impossible on a primarily foreign board. It's like trying to explain the difference between "violent and predatory" and "violent but protective." Americans and Europeans have two very different belief structures, which is why uh...there ARE Europeans and Americans. Those differences have only grown with time.

My position remains:The Democrats and Republicans have co-opted most of the party platforms of the 20th century American Communist party. I maintain that both are actively working to advance off of those co-opted platforms, and the Democrats in particular share many of the same basic principles as the Communist party today. I maintain that President Bush lost the confidence of the American people first by getting into an illegal invasion on false or shoddy pretenses, and finally by abandoning many of his party's principles. Now, let's transfer all this hate that was directed at me towards a much more deserving target - GW.

Adrian

Edit:Kathleen:Commie isn't the worst thing I can call someone, and it's a title I use very specifically. Also, don't infer that just because the left nauseates me that I dig GW. I still wanna see him tried and sentenced for the inumerable crimes he has committed.

If you have read Das Kapital and the communist manifesto, I think you should read them again.

Whether you are a communist or not, Karl Marx is one of the most brilliant economist of all time. His analysis are as close to perfect as you can get. Note that his suggested "actions" might be quite wrong. Do also note that Karl Marx borrowed quite a lot from Adam Smith(!).

I still think you are shooting over the target Adrian. Can you imagine a country with this,

Free education including higher learning
Free health care for everyone
Abortions for everyone (I don't see this one as a problem actually...)
Social welfare programs up the ying yang

And still being able to do, think and act the way you want? That is sort of what social democratic values rest up on. I'm quite convinced (not certain of course) that I can talk, think, read and act in ways you can't, due to the fact that I'm Swede. And if you find your fellow politicians to be socialist, then we are just as red as it gets over here.

We have are problems as well (lack of dynamics, shortcomings regarding institutions regulating our economy and so on) but, it ain't like you are describing it. You should do some field studies on this one, and then you might get it.

Trust me Adrian, none is supremacy individual rights and how wealth redistribution works around here. I can always choose.

I have to pay my tax, but that isn't necessarly a lack of freedom.

adrian if by your on admission you can barely remember anything of the manifesto and kapital then you're not really at liberty to be throwing the term communist around which is fairly obvious when you're calling people like yeltzin, the clinotons and the republican party of all institutions socialist...

i'm not a marxist by any stretch of the imagination in fact I find the man himself very unlikeablebut i'll give him his dues, as far as political scientists and economists go he did have some interesting and thought out ideas.

you saying you don't recollect marx's writings yet deriding communism and socialism so badly pretty much puts you on the same level as the gun toting rednecks who couldn't even spell communism but hate it just because they're been socialised to hate it over the course of the late 20th Century.

and again, explain to me how a government made up of multi millionaires a billionaires that gives tax breaks to corporations whilst raising taxes on your average citizen, is fighting vehemently to keep healthcare and medicine privatised, loves free market capitalism to the point many see it as being in a select few multinationals pockets, fights tooth and nail to keep religious dogma within governmental institutions etc... is even close to holding communist ideals...

nope.

if people don't have a problem with collective policing, road lighting, garbage pickup etc... i can't see why they'd kick up such a fuss about public healthcare.