[Iceman]

Originally Posted by *ºÇåptäîn¤Çrä§hº*

I know this won't satisfy you and I do get what you are saying, but just because money isn't the prime directive doesn't mean none is involved.

Live 8 doesn't do shit, that's what I'm saying. Other people do and some of the performers at Live 8 do, but the concerts themselves are worth nothing.

Ice

[*ºÇåptäîn¤Çrä§hº*]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Live 8 doesn't do ****, that's what I'm saying. Other people do and some of the performers at Live 8 do, but the concerts themselves are worth nothing.

If it wasn't because of the pure symbolism of the concerts a lot of the performers would do even less - that's what I am saying.

[spunkywho]

Originally Posted by Iceman

Marketing is trying to create a need for something. Raising awareness about Africa isn't really creating a need for the people coming to the concerts. They won't feel a need to donate money to Africa any more than they do now.

That's not correct. Marketing does not try to create a need for something. Marketing exposes certain items to a target segment of the population - the need is already there - marketing and advertising is trying to convince the consumer that this particular product will serve them better than another. If you don't need motor oil to begin with, you still won't by it after seeing 100 commercials. If you do need motor oil, you'll be more likely to buy the brand you have seen for 100 times than one you have never heard of.

Africa does have a problem. People need to be more aware of it (and I disagree with you on the fact that all developed nations are sufficiently aware - I think a lot of people have no idea - all they know is that there are poor countries in Africa, but they have no clue what is really happening - and I am talking about Europeans as well) and they need to be encouraged to actually play a role. The mere knowing about it isn't enough. They need to be 'convinced' that their voices will be heard, that their actions have impact, that they are part of the solutions.

And again, to get back to your money issue, the mere awareness will most likely cause people to donate on their own as well, in addition to the items Crash brought up. Personally, I would have liked it much more if they would have charged for the concerts and donated the proceeds. Of course, then you'd have a slew of people complaining about that and how a big organization cannot effectively distribute the proceeds.

What's your proposal, Ice? (and that of all the pessimists)

[Martin]

Martin, I guess I just don't see what your angst with Geldolf is. You say he's in it for self-promotion and his own ego. Why?

cause his fame and his 1985 deeds fell in oblivion- it's not the ppl that actively witnessed the 1985 version (most of them forgot him, too though)- it's the ppl that weren't borne yet or so young that they didn't care- make a sondage in girls/boys from 14-22 about who bob geldof is- before the announcement of LIVE 8 some 10 per cent would have heard this name before (at least here in central europe) and less than 1% would've known about 85. now- with all the media (internet, huge tv networks in every country and 3tvs in every home) it's the best place for self inscenation (if that word exists ) he's known by everyone- as the one with the halo, the one that really should be awarded the noble-peace prize, the one that changes the world blablabla....

and to that product placement thing: i know sh!t about economics but i think that the ppl don't give a damn about what's the use of all this- "ppl are ignorant" one of the defenders of live8 wrote- and they are indeed- make a sondage at live8 and you're gonna be surprised how many ppl don't know the reason for all this- they think it's a worldwide party and the media show it as that- and a huge part of them visitors will be screaming things like "**** the G8" or "africa forever" or "release them from their debts" and go home saying "did you hear rob thomas?- man this guy rocks!"

and for the G8 things: they can do (close to) nuts about the poverty in africa!

and for that chaos thing: it's 9 concerts in 9 major cities- at each concert ('cept london) close to/ over 1 million ppl are expected. think about the heat (e.g.)- 1000000 ppl stand in the dry heat for several hours, they need water, they need toilets, they need food. if i was the medical big boss for one of those cities/concerts i'd resign immediately. you need tents with water (gallons!!!), air conditioners, emergency packages, a shitload of paramedics and doctors- ppl get exsiccated, they collapse- there are also older ppl attending-and they get cardiac arrests, strokes,... there will be hundreds of alcohol intoxes, there's gonna be epileptics, hypoglycaemics and all those need to be dragged through the 1,000,000 crowd to the treatment centers.... good luck
p.s.: no- i'm not exaggerating in any way!

[Martin]

Originally Posted by spunkywho

Africa does have a problem. People need to be more aware of it (and I disagree with you on the fact that all developed nations are sufficiently aware - I think a lot of people have no idea - all they know is that there are poor countries in Africa, but they have no clue what is really happening - and I am talking about Europeans as well) and they need to be encouraged to actually play a role. The mere knowing about it isn't enough. They need to be 'convinced' that their voices will be heard, that their actions have impact, that they are part of the solutions.

they need to be convinced that their voices will be heard and that their actions have impact...... the thing is THERE IS NO IMPACT!!!! at least not for the ppl in africa- no-one in africa is going to survive cause of live8, no-ones live will last a second longer cause of live8. it's a put up, self-indulged pseudo-heroical act. and if geldof really thinks what he's talking about then he'd need a psychiatrist rather than the noble-peace prize. all live8 does is blaming the politicians of france, usa, canada, italy, the uk, japan, russia and germany for the poverty of this world.

taken from the live8live.com site:

This is without doubt a moment in history where ordinary people can grasp the chance to achieve something truly monumental and demand from the 8 world leaders at G8 an end to poverty.

The G8 leaders have it within their power to alter history. They will only have the will to do so if tens of thousands of people show them that enough is enough.

By doubling aid, fully cancelling debt, and delivering trade justice for Africa, the G8 could change the future for millions of men, women and children."

this is the biggest sh!t i've ever read- it's not far from reality- in fact it's got nothing to do with reality. if it was that f*cking easy the guys (who can't do a thing) would've done it and they'd had entered the history boos till the end of the world (and no-one who's got a chance that his name wil be in the history books blows it off.... )

[spunkywho]

Originally Posted by Martin

taken from the live8live.com site:

I very much like and agree with that quote.

What's your proposal Martin? Critisism does even less - it not only doesn't help, but actively hurts the cause. What is it that you do/would do/would like to see done?

this is the biggest sh!t i've ever read- it's not far from reality- in fact it's got nothing to do with reality. if it was that f*cking easy the guys (who can't do a thing) would've done it and they'd had entered the history boos till the end of the world (and no-one who's got a chance that his name wil be in the history books blows it off.... )[/quote]

[Captain Walrus]

Think about it. There are a lot of bands playing all over the world on Saturday. For a lot of people, its gonna be one of their heroes up there championing the cause. What if, as a result of that, the people who see the show want to go out and plege their support? They start their own little campaigns, lobby their local MP, whatever ... people will want to support something because a hero of theirs supports it. More support = more pressure on Government. Who do you think elects these people? We do! If we want to see some policies about making poverty history, then we damn well better see these policies, otherwise come election day, our vote is gonna go somewhere else.

Things do not get solved simply by chucking money at it. Despite that, I believe a large amount of money probably already has been, and will be made for the event, via the text lottery etc. Will there be merchandise there? Refreshments? You can guarantee that some of that money will go towards the charity. And you can't tell me they won't be selling the white Make Povery History bands there. They'll sell a shitload. People say sex sells, but so does fashion

[ponrauil]

Originally Posted by Martin

and for the G8 things: they can do (close to) nuts about the poverty in africa!

Then why has Tony Blair put the erasing of some 3rd world countries debts on the G8 agenda?

Originally Posted by Martin

and for that chaos thing: it's 9 concerts in 9 major cities- at each concert ('cept london) close to/ over 1 million ppl are expected. think about the heat (e.g.)- 1000000 ppl stand in the dry heat for several hours, they need water, they need toilets, they need food. if i was the medical big boss for one of those cities/concerts i'd resign immediately. you need tents with water (gallons!!!), air conditioners, emergency packages, a shitload of paramedics and doctors- ppl get exsiccated, they collapse- there are also older ppl attending-and they get cardiac arrests, strokes,... there will be hundreds of alcohol intoxes, there's gonna be epileptics, hypoglycaemics and all those need to be dragged through the 1,000,000 crowd to the treatment centers.... good luck
p.s.: no- i'm not exaggerating in any way!

Yes you are overblowing this by miles, making it sound like thousands will be injured/ill at every concert which we both know wont happen. There will be health incidents of course, as there is in almost any event gathering large crowds whatever measures you take. But all the incidents you mention never happen all at the same event nore in dramatic numbers.

However :
1 - 1 000 000 people at a concert has been seen before (Simon & Garfunkel in Central Park in the 70's for example)
2 - The 1 000 000 figure is the total number of people expected during the whole event. They won't all be watching the bands throughout the whole show, there are plenty of side attractions.
3 - People organising this are professionals and know what has to be done, they've done it before.

Originally Posted by Martin

they need to be convinced that their voices will be heard and that their actions have impact...... the thing is THERE IS NO IMPACT!!!! at least not for the ppl in africa- no-one in africa is going to survive cause of live8, no-ones live will last a second longer cause of live8. it's a put up, self-indulged pseudo-heroical act. and if geldof really thinks what he's talking about then he'd need a psychiatrist rather than the noble-peace prize. all live8 does is blaming the politicians of france, usa, canada, italy, the uk, japan, russia and germany for the poverty of this world.

From the quote you stated yourself, no one is blaming G8 nations for the poverty, all that is being said is that they can do something about it, and the sooner the better.
The aim is not to save lives directly but to allow a better and more hopefull future for hundreds of millons people by relieving their economy from a debt that forbids them to invest and develop on their own soil, leaving them with international aid as only income (that goes often directly in the wrong pockets).
Isn't that worth a try?

Originally Posted by Martin

this is the biggest sh!t i've ever read- it's not far from reality- in fact it's got nothing to do with reality. if it was that f*cking easy the guys (who can't do a thing) would've done it and they'd had entered the history boos till the end of the world (and no-one who's got a chance that his name wil be in the history books blows it off.... )

G8 leaders already have their names in history books just from the function they have right now.
Again, they can do something about it and have set it on their agenda.

Ponrauil

[rainsong]

Ok Martin, if what you say is so, that Geldolf is massaging his own ego and patting himself on the back, then why now?? to what end? He's not got anything to sell, by his own admission he's not playing, he has no new music to promote. If all he's looking for is to shine his own halo, then why wait 20 years?? If the need to be "known" is that strong, I doubt it just cropped up out of the blue, a sudden need to reenforce his own status as the savoir of the world's poor. The man is already going down in the history books for Live Aid.
I guess I just don't see the harm in this. I don't know about overseas but the show in Philadelphia will be suffiently covered for pretty much all contingencies I'm sure. Cities like Philly have big events like this all the time, they know how to cover them.
I am curious though what do you suggest that these artists do instead of this one day around the world awareness on world poverty? Don't say give money because I'm pretty sure most of them have done and will continue to do so. What would you have Geldolf and Bono and the like do?

[ponrauil]

On the Bob Geldof ego issue... Even if he was doing this for his own self (which I don't believe one second), I have no problem with someone that does this by giving a great time for free to millions of music fans and hopefully improve the future of poor people on this planet.
Whatever his reasons, millions will take something positive (big or small, short or long term) out of this, both in the rich and poor sides of the world.

Ponrauil