Q + A with Stay Human - V.2 : The Case for Christ.

I understand.

The two ways to live

http://www.matthiasmedia.com.au/2wtl/


mjp
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"How ever we do it, we are all rebels, because we don’t live God’s way. We prefer to follow our own desires, and to run things our own way, without God. This rebellious, self-sufficient attitude is what the Bible calls ‘sin’.

The trouble is, in rejecting God we make a mess not only of our own lives, but of our society and the world. The whole world is full of people bent on doing what suits them, and not following God’s ways. We all act like little gods, with our own crowns, competing with one another. The result is misery. The suffering and injustice that we see around us all go back to our basic rebellion against God."


Personally I regard religious people killing each other for their beliefs as makign a much bigger mess of society and the world than people who follow their own ideals.

I could go through every point of that presentation and shoot it down but I won't bother since it's all opinion and can never be proved.

faith brother, faith, I can't see the wind, but I know it exists.

and please, Jim, go through every point of the presentation and shoot it down... the relationship Christianity proposes is verifiable, meaning, unlike almost all other religions, it is proveable. There is historical evidence.

CS Lewis said what I want to say very well:

'I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of thing Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic—on a level with the man who says he is a poached egg—or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill him as a demon or you can fall at his feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to.'

Peace bro

Christianity is as verifiable as any other religion out there and that's not a whole lot considering that lack of empirical evidence, blind faith and the Bible does not constitute fact.

Scientific explanations do.

Again, another quote.

" `there have been men before now who got so interested in proving the existence of God that they came to care nothing for God himself...as if the good Lord had nothing to do but exist! There have been some who were so occupied in spreading Christianity, that they never gave a thought to Christ.' "

I was taught at school, when I had done a sum, to "prove my answer." The proof or verification of my Christian answer to the cosmic sum is this. When I accept Theology I may find difficulties, at this point or that, in harmonising it with some particular truths which are embedded in the mythical cosmology derived from science. But I can get in, or allow for, science as a whole. Granted that Reason is prior to matter and that the light of that primal Reason illuminates finite minds, I can understand how men should come, by observation and inference, to know a lot about the universe they live in. If, on the other hand, I swallow the scientific cosmology as a whole, then not only can I not fit in Christianity, but I cannot even fit in science. If minds are wholly dependent on brains, and brains on biochemistry, and biochemistry (in the long run) on the meaningless flux of the atoms, I cannot understand how the thought of those minds should have any more significance than the sound of the wind in the trees. And this is to me the final test. This is how I distinguish dreaming and waking. When I am awake I can, in some degree, account for and study my dream. The dragon that pursued me last night can be fitted into my waking world. I know that there are such things as dreams: I know that I had eaten an indigestible dinner: I know that a man of my reading might be expected to dream of dragons. But while in the nightmare I could not have fitted in my waking experience. The waking world is judged more real because it can thus contain the dreaming world: the dreaming world is judged less real because it cannot contain the waking one. For the same reason I am certain that in passing from the scientific point of view to the theological, I have passed from dream to waking. Christian theology can fit in science, art, morality, and the sub-Christian religions. The scientific point of view cannot fit in any of these things, not even science itself. I believe in Christianity as I believe that the Sun has risen not only because I see it but because by it I see everything else. -- The Oxford Socratic Club, 1944. pp. 154-165


Jim, thought this would be of interest to you.
always challenge what you believe you know.

Adios Amigo.

K i'm not going too in depth here because I can't really be bothered but I'll take the headings from every page of the presentation


POINT 1: God is the loving ruler of the world, he made the world, He made us rules of the world under him:

I'm going to let you handle this one since the onus of proof is on yourself. NOTE: proof means solid conclusive facts. Opinions, preachings, Christian websites, 2000 year old writings by MAN etc... are not viable sources.


POINT 2: We all reject the ruler- God - by trying to run our own life our own way without him. But we fail to rule ourselves or society or the world.

You need to prove point 1 before this can even be considered. Now let's just be crazy here and assume there is no God. The whole argument is a fallacy. Also note use of the world ruler. despite the fact its grammatically incorrect (a ruler measures things), I don't really like the idea of this being under Gods command thing but I digress. If God is all powerful, knowing and omnipotent then we don't have much choice but to do as he pleases so if we don't follow God. that's his **** up not ours. See also my earlier point about non religious ideas doing alot less to endanger and ru9in the planet than religious ideals.


POINT 3: God won't let us rebel forever. God's punishment for rebellion is death and judgement.

hmmm kinda diverting from this lovely nice guy he's made out to be. I'm not going to go too much into this one but since it's near Christmas: if you're not good Santa won't bring you presents, if you don't follow our religion you'll die and burn in hell....... see any similarities here?


POINT 4: Because of his love. God sent his Son to the world: the man jesus Christ. Jesus always lived under gods rule. Yet by dying in our place he took our punishment and brought our forgiveness.

now call me cynical but for a guy who, in point 3, pretty mcuh said if i don't do things his way i'm going to suffer big time, i'm not totally believing he'd be all that cool with his only son dying because of the same reason. Anyone?


POINT 5: God raised his son Jesus to life again as ruler of the world. Jesus has conquered death. now gives new life and will return to judge.

Is anyone getting worried about this recurring theme about being under God's rule ie power. I mean it'd be really easy for someone to abuse this fact no? maybe write a book saying God told him to do it and if we don;t follow it then we're doomed? nah that would never happen would it. And again with the loving, sympathetic and kind man coming back to judge with a vengence, contradiction?


POINT 6: the 2 ways to live:
OUR WAY: reject the ruler - God, Try to run life our own way.
THE RESULT: Condemned by God and facing death and judgement

GOD'S WAY: Submit to Jesus our ruler, rely on jesus' death and resurrection
THE RESULT: Forgiven by God, Given eternal life

Carrot and stick ring any bells here? I'll need more substantial evidence on this one to be honest and it pretty much sums up everything else I've said. Submit, condemned, death and judgement? very nice God we've got going here.

Rely on Jesus? Sorry mate but i don't rely on anyone but myself so until you can come up with some real proof as opposed to using rationalism to twist things for a Christian agenda then it's not going to happen.

quotes don't mean a thing mate and I've challenged what i previously believed and came out alot better for it. Maybe you should try it sometime yourself.