Riots in France (now germany?)

its not that they refuse to intergrate. the government has never encouraged it to come about. these people clearly feel sidelined. im not defending what they are doing it is clearly wrong.

i dont go out and riot because i have a life worth living and a job and a good home. these people clearly dont have any kinda life they think is worth living, it is the job of the government to make sure that a society is cohesive and can live in harmony. the french government have failed to create a society where everyone is included.

there is no easy answer to this because it has got to this stage. because its not confined to one area if you start shooting them in the street you will make it a hundred times worse and you will turn the streets of france into a bloodbath.

And from what I'm hearing, the violence is getting worse, and spreading. The police aren't keeping the peace.

If they're harming innocent people, yes. If they're confining their attacks and property damage to government institutions and those that supply them because political dissidents are being hauled away in chains and shot, then they're I'd consider them justified and acting justly. If they're smashing cars and setting people on fire because they won't get jobs or their welfare checks are a few days late, or they're doing the same things because they're hoping to influence government to act arbitrarily in their favor, they are criminals/terrorists.

Far be it from me to tell the French how to run their government so long as they hold the same policy towards us. If their laws, their Constitution (or whatever they have in place of one) mandates certain things, then yes, they should follow the rules. It's no one's fault but your own however if you decide to turn to arson if your employer isn't following the law.

We're in the wrong in Iraq. We invaded a sovereign state under, at best, questionable pretenses, and are attempting to hold our own against a just-acting guerrilla movement.
If the police can't kill one arsonist in self-defense or in defense of innocents, they might as well give up, the situation went sideways a LONG time ago and is un-recoverable.

jbjhand said that if the police started being proactive and enforcing order (saying "Stop! Or I'll say 'Stop!' again" is not order), they'd be kicked out of the UN.

Adrian

A muslim that goes rioting = Terrorist.

Welcome to America!




(wonder what he would describe a White British man that goes rioting as..)

If you set people on fire because you won't integrate into a culture, because you believe the government owes you some sort of living that it isn't giving you, and because you're attempting to influence government policy in your direction, I'll call you a terrorist whatever your skin color. I don't care if you're white, black, or any other shade on the spectrum, if you engage in terrorist acts, that's what you are. Now, do I think you should be hauled off to a secret prison and tortured? No.

Adrian

It's not spreading as much as it is "shifting". The suburbs where it all started 12 nights ago are now calmer than the ones that burst yesterday night. So the police has managed to gain some control on the situation.
The new "bursting" suburbs are unpredictable.


As atroucious as these crimes are that would be like sentencing someone to death without a trial. I can't support that.

And you know Adrian, it's not like the worst agressions that took place have been done just in front of the police, agressors just waiting for the police to arrest or shoot them.
The police are mostly directly confronted to groups of rioters including kids under 15. They can't just shoot randomly and pray for things to settle, it would never happen.
It would rather set all similar suburbs on fire in a even much more impressive manner than just a few are now.


There are valid reason that led these rioters to where they are now and do what they do. Discrimination by employers, estate agencies, schools, police, hospitals, etc... This discrimination isn't set by any rule, it's clearly illegal, but it's occurance is very rarely sanctionned, sadly. The general opinion doesn't care about these suburbs until they become annoying.

The people in these suburbs just never had the same chances as I did to get a life and do something with it, because it's not just discrimination, it's discrimination and all it's consequences through 30 years on families and whole communities. Unemployment, poverty, health problems, fragilized family cells, poor school results, criminality, etc... all in a vicious circle you can't get out of just from good will.

Even if it is someone's sole decision to get a grip and hang on and work twice as hard if that's what it takes, it's just not fair and it is the Government's role to make it fair. It's not a new situation. I had my first year of secondary school in such a suburb (that was in 1988-1989) and it was already a place were the police wouldn't risk going at night on patrol. 3 in my class still had both parents at home. Some had brothers in prison or killed. Some were beaten by their alcoholic father. They had to big troubles outside school and to little support to make it. Education only made it halfway to these kids who grew with no solid values and no clear idea of what the concepts of society, respect and equality mean.

My mom was a teacher in that school and I remember her asking herself "What will happen when these kids'll be 30 and have kids themselves?". There was already no real hope for everyone to expect anything more from life than the ghetto. Just a few could hope, and when I mean few, I mean less than 10%, and even fewer made it out of there.

16 years later nothing has been put on the table for them to grab (and I'm not talking about welfare here). However firmly decided and active you are, at several moments of your life you'll need a helping hand. It didn't happen to them. It's the failure of France's immigration system, no more no less.

I'm not saying the stupid and hopeless minority rioting violently, including against innoncents, is right to do what they are doing, just that the responsibility of why they are doing it is to be shared (at least) equally between themselves and the Government.


It's your own fault most of the times - imo it's not just your fault when the only way you've got left to get your message through is violence. Something else went wrong.


Once you'll get the idea the police are not just synonym of repression but also of prevention and protection, you'll see how wrong you are (imo ).
If the police had given up, because they can't kill even one rioter and expect things to settle when they wont, then there would have been even more victims.


I know who said what, it wasn't directed to just you though it is you I quoted.


Ponrauil

It was discussed on another forum where i post - i think exactly the same as yesterday so i can post what i said there :

This is why i posted yesterday :
I live close to Paris and actually it is quite impressive and really really bad.
More than 1000 cars were burnt last night in France and policemen were shot .... about 30 of them are at hospital.

These people have everything from the government but it seems like they think the goverment owns them more ! simple as that, you don't work, you got money, you can't pay anything social services will help ! As long as you don't work you can have everything in France ... So now they are maybe not happy because they don't own a house but maybe they should try to W O R K !
They always find good excuses to say they don't act like that because of that ...
They can say they are unlucky, poor and all they want to say, but they are all dressed in Adidas and Puma they drive expensive german cars (to not name lol) and all and all .... easy when you steal .... but they don't W O R K.
They tried to steal MY german car they tried to "visit" my house too .... And i work i don't have any help, all i have i won it ! And i don't have as much things as they have. I don't have satelitte channels, i can't go to Mc Do's each days, even not each week ... I can go on holiday once a year after saving all the year quite hardly.

Oh no really this time i won't take their defense, they are just lazy and bored people who are revolted because they want more !

I think, for once the government decided to react quickly and to be strict with them ... we'll see. But the medias give a false idea. We're not in the 70's anymore when people arrived from other countries for working and were "parked" in tours ! not the same generation.
I live in places like that and knew and still know quite a lot of people like them and i don't have no pity for them anymore.

You'd like to shake them and tell them, Wake up !! in our ociety we MUST WORK ! this is life, not easy ok but no choice .... If you want to live and have things in your life then move !


And today :

The problem is that are also burning school, church etc ...
I live near a town which is at times worst than some surbubs in crises (Creil for french who knows !)and if they start playing this game, my kids will stay at home until our lazy government finds something.
They talked on the news about something so surprising this morning that i jumped out of bed ! what's the word .. ? you know when you musn't be out after a certain time in the evening ... wow !
We're in France, i can't believe it. And that won't stop them anyway.
What would they do? our prisons are already too full ....

--------------------------------------------------------

Do you know Creil Ponrauil ? I lived in Clichy and Paris and the first portuguese twon in france which is Cerizay with a lot of social problems and i never saw what i see here ..... Creil is a bomb itself.
They again tried to visit the houses around here the other night. Things were stolen at my neighbours.
We have to hide my car at night.
This is completely crazy.

Jess, you can't give everyone in these suburbs the same judgement.
The fact is a lot of people have suffered from discrimination. And still suffer from it from state institutions (un exemple : Regarde le zapping de lundi sur le site de canal+ et tu verras de quoi je parle).

The fact is the people that are now stealing and setting things on fire are NOT the ones with the will to move on and get out of that situation, but they are issued from the past failures of our society in many domains.

I know some abuse the system, I've seen and met some too, but if this was 100% true we wouldn't have about 5 million people in France living in poverty now would we?

I think one of the issues is to know who the bastards setting things on fire are a define clearly what are their reasons and who's responsability it is. This is the failure of 30 year old system, we won't learn from our mistakes by addressing these events as isolated in time.

I'm not excusing anything, just saying that it's too easy to tag everyone of them as spoiled lazy bastards to whom everything is granted. There's more to it then just their horrible behavior.


Ponrauil

It sounds so similar to what happened here in the 60's and seventies with the black population. Generations of families had no hope and couldn't get decent jobs. The schools in those areas were awful and not up to the same educational level as surrounding communities. Eventually, those areas became pressure cookers that blew up with stored anger. It's bad enough when people won't work, but when people desperately want a job and are routinely turned down due to the colour of their skin (as happened here) - the anger and humiliation festers until something like this happens. When you watch your children get an inferior "state" education, when the city refuses even to fix potholes in the streets in your area, when local cops turn their heads to crime because "those people" have a high crime rate - you might just blow your fuse and riot too. And this scenario has happened in so many places it's almost a textbook situation. France and Germany should have seen this happening elsewhere, noticed the similarities and done something before this sort of violence broke out.

Unfortunately, sometimes violence is the only way to get the attention of the people in power. Let me give a personal example. When I went to UC Berkeley in the seventies the rape rate on campus was more than 6 times the national average. The campus police did nothing. We women had to organize a "walking club" just to be able to go to the library to study at night. We very nicely asked (at first) to be able to enroll in the self-defense classes which at that time were ONLY offered in the men's physical education department. We were turned down flat. It had never been done, the men would object - blah blah blah. We then organized a huge rally to get the attention directed to the real problem and that still did no good. Eventually another rally was organized (yes I helped) and it got ugly - bricks were thrown through windows and general mahem followed. The administration was horrified that "nice girls" would act that way but guess what - we got our classes after that. I'll be willing to bet that after this violence in the suburbs, some of the things that the people were complaining about will finally be addressed.
No one reads history and therefore no one seems to learn from it

Kathleen

True.

I'll add that no one (among the people in power) dares to face present problems either. They all rather playing it safe for their career than actually working in the Nation's interest.

As they let the situation rotten, it got harder and harder everyday, and more and more complex, to correct things and make them fair. And it's not from a lack of warning of local authorities and associations.


Ponrauil

Maybe it's because i live in the middle of all this but i can't find any excuses anymore. All you said it's true Ponrauil but for the pasts years, not anymore. They always find good excuses.

Ok they are maybe not all the same.

They could built something nice if they really wanted , look they have everything, they don't pay for a roof, they have the help for each new school year, money each month etc .. so if they work they can easily start something good. I mean like everyone. No, they want more. I hear that so often 'oh i don't want to be a seller ... i want to win more money ... " ok ... ???? what can you do, what do you want to do ? "i don't know ..."

Maybe i'm more in the details of the problem, but i see things like that because these people who creating problems, who are violent show us everyday we should be scared of them, they always try to impress us etc etc ... when they can't even work and live by themselves ! In what are they superior to others ? And they'd like to give the idea that it's the opposite ... That's another aspect maybe, true. But it's the same problem at the base anyway.

I had to go to Creil tonight, where the towers are. Trust me i locked the doors of the car and my mobile was on the seat near me ready to call. My handbag was hidden. They were so so agressive. You know look at her she's got a nice car .... At any moment they can chose you as their next victim, not easy to find them excuses after ... What did i do ???

I lived where they live, i left school at 14 years old too. I did some bad things i was revolted because some people had a lot and i had nothing ! i was jealous and agressive too. I know how they feel. But don't you think if just even half of them would wake up and realise they can live a simple but real life it would change a lot ?
You know that's what the "Grands frères" teach them. Grands frères = Some guys who decided to change but who are known and respected by all these persons in surbubs. They realised they were wrong and decided to do something of their life. And now they are even in buses for the security of the passengers, they are the only ones the youngs would listen.
That's exactly what they tell them, don't be revolted, that's useless, do something of your life !!

Easy to try to gain other's attention by violence.
But first why are they ignored now ? because they don't do anything ! they don't participate in anything. They just complain about everything.

Their dads or grandads who arrived here for working years ago can't even understand themselves why the "youngs" are like that.

You know this attitude "i'm on drugs - i steal and can't get a job cause i'm unlucky i'm from here .." is not working anymore. They had some help, more refused it. You need to take them by the hand and to do all for them ... and even then they'd fail because it's easier to do nothing.

Look all the money the goverment sends for all these towns or part of towns all the time. Even the schools they have priority on any others.


I think actually the ones who create all this are the one who could do something. They just have to accept the help and the fact that it's not easy.
What else can change ? who has to do something again for them ?

Don't forget that it's not the "real poors" who do all this. No, the real ones are busy trying to find a roof for the night and a bit of work and a bit of food ...
And the number you mentionned : 5 millions .... this makes me laugh you know. How many in these 5 millions "win" more than me ?

Who has to do something for them then ? us ?

It's not like even just 10 years ago. Things has changed you know. And maybe i'm so tired of hearing them complaining i really don't want to hear them anymore.