Riots in France (now germany?)

Jess I understand what you are saying and as I said it's a shared responsability. That means everyone (rioters and government and the rest of society) has to put in some effort and some good will to break that vicious circle.

Their excuses are still the same because most of these excuses are still valid, even if some, a minority but a loud and violent one, are abusing of them.

As for the money the government put into these suburbs over the years, I can tell you it has been used more to keep them in the suburbs than to help them integrate themselves into society. The money was invested in gymnasiums, parcs or new shopping centers when it should have gone to education and health. I've been to both city center schools and suburban schools, I can assure you the difference in wealth, and in means available for education, is obvious. All the money sent could have had some efficiency if the discrimination by employers and estate agencies had stopped. But discriminate only one and you make another 100 hopeless about getting integrated.

Allocations for associations, often created and managed by the "Grands Frères", to help youngsters to have even just a hobby (sports, dance, theatre...) were cut 3 or 4 years ago, leaving them with nothing to do but hang out. What good could that do? And who's responsability is it if not the Government's?

The 4.5 million people (including over 1 million children) living in poverty own not more, and often less, than the RMI. The income defining the limit is 560 Euros per month for a single adult. I'll dare guess you earn more and that you know as well as I how hard it is to live in France with such a low income. But these 4.5 million are not only in these suburbs.

We must think of something else than just money as an option to help and evolve. When I studied engineering in Metz I went to such a suburb (Borny) to teach young and older ones to read, write and count. That was real, concrete help and I never had any problem other than some typical arguing at the beginning. Once they got interested they were great working with and a lot made good progress. They just needed a push. They needed real concrete help, physically present, not just numbers on bank accounts. It's nothing else than the old "Give a man one fish, and he will eat one day. Teach a man how to fish and he will eat all his life."

On the other hand I'm very aware that repression had been to weak and coward. Maybe people in power where to afraid something like what's happening now would start. But it's like with a child really, the more you wait before getting it to understand "No" as an undisputable answer, the harder it will be and the less you'll feel the ability and the energy to do it. The less you'll be able to be, or even just seem, fair. And if you really are unfair on top of being weak, you're in for some tough rebellion, you just can't tell when. And you can't blame the kid only.


I understand perfectly how stressful the situation can get, and how there will always be bastards to take advantage of it, but one thing we mustn't do if we want to get out of it is generalise and be one-sided. We're all in this together. We need to read our slogan, Liberty-Equality-Fraternity, backwards. Fraternity will help Equality. Equality means real Freedom, and that's what we're all after.


Ponrauil

this isnt aimed at ponraul or jess directly but I'm in the middle of writing an essay on the german invasion of france and when looking back in french history it's kinda fair to say that the nation has a history rooted in racism and discrimination and there's alot of historical evidence to say that the french were even more anti-semetic than the germans for the most part.

how much do you think this is playing into things? it does sound really similar to what happened to the catholics in ulster for years and we know how that turned out when the shit hit the fan.

Ponrauil, the grand frères are still there, no need to pay them, they are present and do a great job. Tell them they depend of the government and you'll see

I know money is not the only problem. But it helps a lot (in every situation anyway !)
And these persons already have all the help for health and scolarity.
Ok some money was sent to make the place they live more pleasant, like creating amusement parcs for example, i think that's already a good thing the young kids can have some games nearby or places for playing football swimming pool etc etc .. i know this can't resolve the problem but that's better than nothing and you see in comparaison our schools in villages near this surbubs don't have toys or anything, all the credits are for "them". Anyway it's broken regularly, they can't respect anything ! and when there are no toys anymore they are revolted because the town forget them ... ? Mmm ... . It is just another example why i'm so upset by them.

It's true that responsabilities are shared, but i think we are tired to have to make efforts when on the other side you can't see any. Never, and since so many years.
I don't know where the solution is, and what it could be.
The repression or racism is not even valid today ! it's another problem again ! Or yes there is still of course unfortunely but it's used as an excuse too often so you can't trust everyone anymore, that's too easy to use that as an excuse.

I'm just arrived from an interview and guess what ? i'm in competition with a man called Youssef .... the boss was clear and direct : having someome of this origin can help ! What can i say to that ???? because the job would be in Creil, i know the shop, the department chief wants me there and collegues too. But having a man with arabian origins sounds better ..... talking about discrimination ....

They have everything !!! you know that's what i can't understand, why don't they move and make effort themselves for a better life ?

I don't win all this money they have you know. I'd like to.
True, i could say ok i won't work anymore and ask for social help, but no i want to work i want to live my life and for sure i don't want to stay at home and depends of the social services ! i'd win more money if i'd ask for the RMI ....
But i'll never do it ! It's very hard each month, but we have a roof, we eat. Priorities are differents.
Ok no Mc Do's or satelitte channels, not even canal+ .... It's not easy but this will change one day. I'm fighting so hard for a good job.
One day ..... but even until there i won't ask for the rmi.

When you see some adverts saying "vacation is not a right but an evidence" or something like that, you're supposed to give money then some kids from the surbub can go on holiday in february for example (because the associations already pay for summer holiday) .... We have 2 weeks in summer and that's it ! but we should pay for them to send them on holiday more often than the ones who work ?? isn't this silly ? The associations and the credits are wrong, their work is useless. As you said it's better to be just present for them, to help them for their homework etc ... And to say stop when you see they need it.


Yes people in power are afraid and they are simply lost !!! Nobody knows what could help !

I don't think that is true. There has always been too much racism, more xenophobia really, in France. But that's due to all the immigration we've had, especially during the 20th Century from Poland, Spain, Portugal, Italy, North Africa, Asia... When you look at how the French reacted to these populations you always find the same things : "Immigrants are here to steal our jobs and food", "Immigrants make most of criminality", "Immigrants have everything when we don't" and such... But I don't think that's typically French.

I don't think it's either true or fair to say France and it's people's history can find a fundamental in racism. It has never represented the majority (officially never more than 18% nationaly). I don't believe it ever showed in our foreign politics either.

Looking further back in history and at the colonisation period, the whole developped world at the time (England, France, Spain, Italy, Holland...) was racist. It's not a French "speciality" though there will always be too much of it.

That's a very strange comment to read for me... A lot of French were jews themselves and many still are. Though there was indeed some French anti-semitism during the German occupation the vast majority of the French at the time was silent and passive because they were just scared. It wasn't a secret to anyone the German could burn a whole village if people tried to resist or if they didn't collaborate, as they did at Ouradour. The rest was split between resistance and collaboration with the ennemy. You'll find at least as many facts of people helping jews than people giving them in.

Care to share a few of that evidence you're talking about?


As Jess and I said, the discrimination and racism was and still is real. People are right to protest against that. But it is true that some, most probably the ones rioting right now, use this as a reason to not respect anything.
The situation has reached a point when just saying "no" to them, however justified, makes you a racist. They think that gives them the right to throw molotovs on Police and stones on fire fighters, to burn down schools, gymnasiums, buses, etc...

This minority ruins the credibility and progress of the people living there and trying to make it through peacefully, like the Grand Frères. The vast majority is again silent and passive, because scared.

The fact is until the real discrimination doesn't stop, these bastards will always be able to take advantage of it.


Ponrauil

Jess, I agree with most of your post but this is where I don't.
They (people in these suburbs, not just the rioters) have a lot yes, from welfare etc... but they do not have what they need : a decent home (there is no intimacy in these buildings), equal chances than you and me to find a job or a flat outside of their suburb, equal chances to succeed in school because of the conditions there, etc...

Now I know that the rioters and some others often destroy what they have, but however stupid and full of nonesense that may be, imo it just shows how rotten and desperate the situation is. It's time to do something about it, and they obviously can't.


Ponrauil

Yes in fact i mean the "bad ones" by "them". Sorry.

I know they are not all the same. But you see even if their flats are not what we all dream of i mean it is possible to find something else, but most of them stay there because it's cheap. Again, not all of them. Not for all but for a lot of person there it is a real choice.
I lived in this sort of tower too i know it's not easy but at some time i made a choice, with my small salary i decided to rent a smaller flat for more money but a better one ... you see that's where i say i don't understand them ? if they are not happy why don't they move ? Oh i know it's not that easy but again this is only another example. Its not easy but possible.

As for the equal chance to find a decent job, after the day i had i prefer not to answer

This is another debate ... men/women .... argh !!!! *hiding her kids to employers*


As for Jim's post i was sure you'd explain and it is just perfect imo.
I don't know what he is alking about exactly, i can't think of something close to that. (And i'm from bayeux/half gypsy and jew )

Just wanted to say that explains a lot !!!!!

I don't know what they can do ....

Not easy for anyone in fact. I think of the families who live in these surbubs and have to cope with that even if they don't agree they are there. I know in my village a family arrived to stay at the sisters's house because it is not possible to sleep where they live. Kids are scared and all.

And just now i have to go and hide my car for the night ...

If we could count (i know that's not really nice) but try to follow me ... if we could count really how many of these persons who are in the streets at nights really tried to change their life ??? really tried more than twice to get a job ? (to get dressed to go to the appointment even i mean lol) how many really tried something ? how many are really really "stuck" in their surbub ?

This went too far now. I a bit afraid there is no way out.

Oh i heard the government will give more money to associations etc ... but it's not the key.

Another example a few years ago unemployed asked for more money for christmas ...???!!! and they decided to give them ! now they want more !!!!!!
Again ... how many really tried to live by themselves ?

I know you can find some of my opinions shocking, but it's just that i fight so much everyday to have what i need and when i see some have much more than me and don't even try to work.

Sad system we got here.

I hear you Jess.

Your exasperation is justified. Some of your opinions can sound shocking but I know who you are refering to and what you mean, and the fact you can be so hard on them also comes from this rotten situation. The vicious circle works for everyone unfortunately.

The sad thing is you're smart enough to not fall in the "Le Pen" trap with all this, but too many people will after this. The next elections will be very "special" again I'm afraid...


Ponrauil

Don't worry, Le Pen is just all i hate
But yes it's a bit scarry for the next elections ....

I know some families, two in fact, one is half arabian and the other half portuguese, they both told me the other day that they would vote for him again !!!! just because of insecurity and because no matter who we have at the power they are all liers. So it's half provocation to warn the government but also because they try to find a "savior" ... But one day he might be the president because of this behaviour. Dangerous game.

I heard the police twice while we had supper .... hope this night will be a bit more calm because our nerves can't really take more.

Guess what... My former neighbour in Lorraine is jew and survived Auschwitz. As such a survivor he still gets some compensation from the State, an allocation Le Pen, as the neo-facist that he is, wants to cut. He still votes Le Pen everytime because "at least there would be some order".

Fear/Insecurity is such a strong political lever. Ask Bush...


Ponrauil

I've been looking around the web on various sites to see how the whole thing was being reported abroad. Some get it right, some get it wrong (I won't start on Fox News right now...) but most of, if not all, the foreign news relating the events are quick (and happy maybe?) on criticising France's inequalities between social classes.

What a lot seem to forget is to look at their own country and learn the lessons of the French situation. ie, inequities in the US are growing, the rich getting richer, the poor poorer etc... Same in most western rich countries.

The whole "western" economical/social system (call it capitalism, liberalism, whatever) is to be questioned here and as well as it's sufficiency, or even necessity, to reach a well balanced society.


Ponrauil