RIP Pope John Paul II

RIP

RIP

I am not religious either, but it seems to me that the world lost a great human being which is sad regardless of whether you knew them personally or not.

Exactly!!!
It is disgrace to bet on death of any person......

Right. And especially someone that killed thousands or possibly even millions of people by preaching false truths to gullible people. I'm not sad at all, actually I hope that things will get better now that the old crazy geezer been removed.

Isn't it a disgrace to let people die just because one man thinks condoms are bad for you? Think of all the children that are born with HIV because of the pope...

Ice

Yet he also saved quite a few people from the communist horrors, didn't he? And he didn't take those condoms from the people's hands. He just never recommended their use because it would have been incoherent with the Church's policy on sex. He would have been largely criticised and the Church would have stumbled if he had said "hey, use condoms".

No Pope - at least in the foreseeable future - is going to act otherwise. It can't be.

And I don't agree, but I'm tired of seeing him blamed for something that was quite out of his reach. The NGOs working on the field - except for the Catholic ones - never heeded him anyway.

And thing is i never heard at church saying 'Never use condoms' or such things, i can't really don't see why he has blame. Acutally i never heard at church they saying that 'Pope' recomend it and u should follow it..

In anycase that doesn't matter, even most notirous killer dieing, i never bet on his death.....

Communist horrors? Define "communist horrors".

He pretty much did. He had the power to tell people how to act, but he didn't use it for good. All the countries that suffer the worst from AIDS have catholic leaders who will do what the pope says. Because of him there are many, many people dying right now.

It wasn't the churches policy, it was his own. Before John Paul II people were allowed to use condoms, he made it "bad". And if the catholic church were to crumble for saying "use condoms" then so be it. Better that way.

That's where your wrong. At least that's what I truly hope. The power of catholic church is way too big for it to be good for anyone. The new pope should acknowledge the times we're living in and act accordingly.

It was in his reach, if he would've wanted to do something about it. The NGO's had no hope of reversing anything the pope said.

Ice

Communist horrors: people beaten to death for not agreeing with the system. The Pope was a key figure in the bringing down of the communist system and in his last trip to Cuba he kept fighting against it.

I might be wrong here but I think all this condom thing comes from the fact that he didn't openly and overtly recommend its use. He just ommitted it which in my books is not so bad as saying a loud NO. I think that's as permissive as he could get with the matter.

So the AIDS problems come all from the Church's point of view, huh? What about those "Catholic" leaders using their funds to manufacture weapons and what have you instead of putting them to their accorded use of prevention and medicines and doctors and shelters and condoms? You're making it as if it hadn't been for the Pope it all would have been a rosy scenario and AIDS would have vanished in no time at all.

Time will say but looking at how things stand right now I think I could safely bet that the next Pope is going to follow the same guidelines, if not tougher when it comes to sex and condoms and birth control. The Spanish Church made a "crazy" statement about "allowing" the use of condoms for certain cases and about half an hour later it had been all a misunderstanding. Again, no one openly say "don't use them" they just left a blank.

The Church says sex is only for procreating, for the human race to go on, and not for having, well, fun. Therefore it makes perfect sense to me (even if I don't agree) that they are not for the use of condoms. It's not so hard to see.

Maybe what those countries rife with AIDS need is not only condoms, but new leaders who won't take so seriously what a Pope says but follow their own "instincts". Perhaps they need to separate the Church from the State. The Pope was just one man preaching to whoever would listen. Too bad if those that listened would have been better off not doing it.

He wasn't a "key figure", but he did help the former SU countries to leave the SU. And he certainly didn't save anyone from being beaten to death.

As to Cuba, he didn't fight the communism, but was friendly with Castro.

He could've just said "yes".

Pope didn't create AIDS, but he sure didn't help fighting it. As to the leaders, if the pope would've said that every one should use condoms, the people would've listened to him. Now the leaders don't have to do anything about the problem because the pope didn't tell them.

Yeah, for a while it looked like there actually were some intelligent people in the church. Too bad the rest got them before they got to do anything good.

Show me the part in bible where it says so. It actually says that "man should waste his seed" and that sex should only exist between married man and woman. Nowhere does it say that you shouldn't have it for fun. The reason the catholic church condems condoms is because they're afraid it would increase extra-marital affairs. Like people don't cheat now... All it has led to is create priests that think raping young boys is acceptable.

Or perhaps the world needs a pope who thinks about what he says and what kind of effect his words have on certain people.

Perhaps we need to dismantle the whole church?

Ice

He was a key figure. Just as he influenced the people in the Third World as far as condoms are concerned, he also influenced the people in communist countries and helped things get moving onto freedom. He wasn't there to defend anyone from getting beaten individually but did save people from it by accelarating the processs. He did save them indirectly, if you like.

Being diplomatic does not equal being friendly. Not at all. He said things in fron of Fidel Castro no other world leader had dared say to his face.

He could of course but not saying anything was the safest for both parties. Too bad the most affected party didn't really understand the omission and it grew to be such a big deal.

Again - who's to blame there? The Pope or the leaders' sheepishness? It's their country and they should act as they think better for their people. Surely the Pope did talk openly about other issues and they're heedless of them.

And I thought I had made it clear that I don't agree with the Church in this matter. No, it's nowhere in the Bible that sex is only for procreating. In that quotatio, though, you did mean "man should NOT waste his seed", didn't you? At least that's the way I think I've always heard it said, but I couldn't really say. Anyway, we agree there. But one thing is agreeing with and quite another seeing the motives for things. The Catholic Church has been saying this for ages. Where did it start or why escapes me.

Or perhaps the world should finally separate religion from all other matters. What the Church says is nothing but guidelines for - according to them - a better life nearer to God. It's no law, you're not going to prison if you don't act accordingly. Let whoever want to follow it do so but don't make it compulsory.

Haha, perhaps! But I don't think it's going to happen overnight. At the current rate though - at least in developed countries - either they allow marriage for priests or accept women priests or they're certainly going down the sink anyway.

Oh, and something I've been forgetting all the time. One thing this Pope also did was to ask for forgiveness where the Church had obviously been wrong (WWII, etc). That caused quite an uproar among the most conservatory groups but I think it was quite a step.