Suicide Bombers

By invading 2 countries??

I meant taking religious aspects to the extreme. We are not using God as a basis for invading these countries.

+1 for the Jewish lobby havign too much power and influence in the US. i'm not scared to say it, ive been saying it for years and as is expected ive been regarded as an anti semitist for it. problem with that is im not saying it because they're Jewish im saying it because no religion should have as much power and influence wether it be Protestant, catholic, muslim or jedi.

too many people put their faith in religion and the US is a definite case of strength by numbers ruling the show.

yes people may be driven to blow themselves up as a result of US foreign policy but its not the leaders who necesarilly make that choice. imagien george bush woke up 2moro and said tell u what im going to give israel back to palestine and let the Jewish people sort it out themselves. there'd be a state of emergency.

You'd have a hard time convincing Bush of that. He's on a mission from God. Jeez, just about every time he speaks in public about anything important, it sounds like he just got off the phone with the Almighty. I know his handlers write a lot of that for him, but he seriously thinks God wants him to make the world safe from terror. Like killing tens of thousands of people is going to do anything more than tick off the terrorists.

Sure religion is a motivating factor, but every side has dressed up its atrocities in the trappings of righteousness. Even back before the crusades. Sure it contributes to their zeal in attacking us, but to blame their fanatisism on a corrupted version of Islam is to ignore the totally legitamate cause they're fighting in the only way they know how. We can pass off their complaints because they think they get a free ride to Heaven if they blow themselves up and that's taking the easy way out. Its denying they have a cause that may actually be worth something. Now I'm not saying you're blind to the real reason behind their actions, but it sounds like you're placing an awful lot of the responsibility on their religion. In the grand scheme of things, it wasn't that long ago that churches were preaching that resistance to British tyranny was disobedience to God. We've had our share of screw ups too. It'd be great if everyone who ever used violence in a manner other than personal self-defense could divorce their actions totally from religion, but every side wants to think that its right, and wants to convince others that they're right.

Plus he's making a mockery of freedom here at home. Airline safety got nationalized with the result that lines are 2 hours long and an 80 year old senator (John Dingle) got pulled out of line and asked to drop his drawers (are the guards looking for bombs in his boxers?) because his hip plates set off the scanners. This man is a SENATOR for crying out loud! Not only that, he's 80 years old! About a dozen predawn mass arrests at airports (and airport worker's homes) around the nation made Rummy look like a hero, but it turned out almost all of them were immigration violations. The FBI no longer has to serve a warrant to search your home as long as they can say they have probable cause (which no one reviews mind you) and they can bug your computer, tap your phone, and vaccuum up your emails like lint. You'll never know they've been there unless you get hauled into court for stuff they had to invade your home to find. They never have to tell you. They can force (on pain of prosecution) libraries and bookstores to turn over your book lists to the FBI, and they'll be arrested if they tell you the feds came knocking. Bush and co are killing freedom at home, and blasphemously saying they want to "save" it abroad.

Adrian

hey man you're losing sight of the problem here. the east and west were at each other throats long before bushs dad go tinto power never mind bush himself. maybe he's not exactly doing much to calm the situation down but as i said before. its not a case of george sitting going right who can we blow up today, there's alot of decisions being made by people with bo authorative clout but merely because they have power by numbers and status. if u were in his position i dont think u'd find it as easy to say tell u what lets just forget all this and go home because its not that simple and its through no fault of his own.

as for all the fbi stuff, it only takes 1 action to go unchecked before we have another 9/11. if there'd been stuff like that going on before, there's a good chance 9/11 wouldnt have happened and we wouldnt be in this predicament in the 1st place.

the FBI r doing their job, if you've got nothign to hide then ur ok cos they're not going to jail people for nothing CONTRARY TO WHAT THE LEFTIES WOULD LIKE YOU TO THINK whats the actual point of lockign someone up for absolutely no reaosn at all? none correct.

what we have here is a war, like it or not we've been handed our sides and when it comes down to it i'm fighting for my corner.

Adrian,

You can't believe the relief your posts on this thread bring to me. I was starting to wonder if anyone in the US was actually aware of what you are saying. I'm not saying that all the other US citizens I've chated with on this board are blind Bush followers, but I never heard one just state the facts as they are, which is a difficult thing to do about your own country.
I don't know what you would propose to change things, nor if we would agree to it, but we agree 100% on what the situation is.
And it's more than a US problem. Bush hides behind religion, terror and "freedom", Blair hides behind terror, "freedom" and loyalty, Chirac hides behind peace, Europe and the UN... All for nothing but their own interests. They feed us with worldwide noble causes while discretly taking our freedoms and social assets, the ones our fathers and grand-fathers fought and died for, away from us.

Ponrauil

pretty up your own arse to say that you're right and just about every single American is wrong eh. There are no facts on this matter there's far too much for even the people making the decisions to comprehend and pass judgement on.

while we're slightly going off topic i'll point you to something 9i know is pretty much a fact. you're talking about the world leaders doing everything for their own interests. don't let the terrorists fool you into believing they're some sort of freedom fighter or hero because they're all acting in their own self centred interests too.

i won't say any more on that but you can trust me 1st hand on that one.

Jim,

I think Adrian, or me, even if we hate Bush, just use his name to incarnate US politics in general and for at least the last 20 years, because he's the guy in charge right now.

The FBI isn't doing it's job by puting someone behind everyone's shoulder, that means by "postponing" freedom in a very politically correct way. And most of what they're doing now officially they were doing secretly before 9/11 IMO.

I don't want to be handed my side, I want to chose it, and there aren't just two sides here.

Ponrauil

I think I'm right yes, but I never said every single american was wrong. I said it felt like some of them are aware of the situation but can't face it up to the point of telling it as it is out loud because such truth hurts when it's about your home country.


There are some facts to me. People making the decisions understand very well the situation, they just tend to take advantage of it whatever the risks. It's the long term consequences they miss.

Of course, I know this. It still doesn't justify world leaders actions.

Ponrauil

u think they care if u agree with them or the US? course they don't. sooner or later they're going to be blowing themselves up on all our streets. maybe not tomorrow, maybe not next week but only a fool would deny this fact and it'll be interesting to see how peoples perceptiopns change when the reality comes closer to home and more personal.

as for the FBI taking away freedoms, only to people who arouse suspiscion. dunno about u but i havent hard anyone hear complaining about snatch squads raiding their houses in the middle of the night have you? stuff like thats been happening in ulster for years and you dont get people complaining about it because they know its for the greater good. "i don't like the FBI watching us all" just leave the people planning attacks in peace to get on with it. is that what we're supposed to do?

incase u'd forgotten there was a guy who took away alot of his countrymens freedom, went by the name saddam but of course it was OK for him to do it because he was just the under dog and the big evil US of A came and chased him away for his precious oil