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  #21  
Old 02-08-2004, 06:06 PM
Jim Bon Jovi Jim Bon Jovi is offline
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Adrian I always thought you were anti gun for some reason.
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  #22  
Old 02-08-2004, 06:07 PM
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Actually Jim, that first paragraph wasn't directed at you, it was directed at Mad4Jovi, who for some reason thinks that a violent criminal should be reasoned with or beaten up (try explaining excessive force to a homicidal crook). Given the time it takes police to respond to an armed intruder call these days, one can only hope Mad4Jovi doesn't have a run-in with a criminal intent on doing them harm.

Adrian
The problem with this case is that Martin was lying in wait for them & shot him in the back when they weren't walking towards his house. Hence the argument of self defence wasn't successful in court.

Unfortunately it is stepping dangerously into the area of vigilante which starts up a whole new argument.
Lying in wait...what's the problem with that? If someone breaks into my house, it shouldn't matter if I'm waiting for them or not. They criminally entered my house and I don't know if they intend on doing me harm or not (like that should matter, they BROKE in). I have every right (well, natural rights anyway) to defend myself in any manner I deem suitable. If that includes killing that intruder, well too bad, they shouldn'tve tried to come into my house in the first place. If Tony Martin shot someone who broke into his house, he should be given a medal not a jail sentence. Like I said before, only in a country where people don't have any rights is it considered ok for people to be jailed for defending themselves.
They weren't in his house.

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As for vigilante-ism, vigilantes are people who walk the streets and kill criminals without being threatened by them. Their actions are not lawful, unlike a man who kills an intruder in his home.
See above.
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  #23  
Old 02-08-2004, 06:08 PM
Jim Bon Jovi Jim Bon Jovi is offline
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and while we're at it. when does it become self defence? does he have to wait till they set about him before its ok for him to go for them?

as adrian said. they were in his house, whether he waited or not was irrelevant it;s nto as if he left a trail of dvd players and furniture leading into his front door for them to follow.
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  #24  
Old 02-08-2004, 06:09 PM
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and while we're at it. when does it become self defence? does he have to wait till they set about him before its ok for him to go for them?

as adrian said. they were in his house, whether he waited or not was irrelevant it;s nto as if he left a trail of dvd players and furniture leading into his front door for them to follow.
They weren't in his house.
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  #25  
Old 02-08-2004, 06:15 PM
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he died outside. they had been in his house. fair enough they were running away but who;s to say they wouldnt just come back tooled up?
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Old 02-08-2004, 06:27 PM
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he died outside. they had been in his house. fair enough they were running away but who;s to say they wouldnt just come back tooled up?
Because if you start arguing pre-emptiveness as a reason for self defense you have rubbed out the line.
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  #27  
Old 02-08-2004, 06:30 PM
Jim Bon Jovi Jim Bon Jovi is offline
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he died outside. they had been in his house. fair enough they were running away but who;s to say they wouldnt just come back tooled up?
Because if you start arguing pre-emptiveness as a reason for self defense you have rubbed out the line.
they were there with the sole intention of breaking into his house. when people start stabbign each other for knockign pints over then u can complain but when u know someones coming for u then why not?
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  #28  
Old 02-08-2004, 06:37 PM
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he died outside. they had been in his house. fair enough they were running away but who;s to say they wouldnt just come back tooled up?
Because if you start arguing pre-emptiveness as a reason for self defense you have rubbed out the line.
they were there with the sole intention of breaking into his house. when people start stabbign each other for knockign pints over then u can complain but when u know someones coming for u then why not?
Because if you know they are coming for you, there are other alternatives.
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  #29  
Old 02-08-2004, 06:38 PM
Jim Bon Jovi Jim Bon Jovi is offline
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he died outside. they had been in his house. fair enough they were running away but who;s to say they wouldnt just come back tooled up?
Because if you start arguing pre-emptiveness as a reason for self defense you have rubbed out the line.
they were there with the sole intention of breaking into his house. when people start stabbign each other for knockign pints over then u can complain but when u know someones coming for u then why not?
Because if you know they are coming for you, there are other alternatives.
such as phoning the police who would either ignore him or take ages to come,

hiding and letting them tsake what they wanted

locking his doors and windows as if thatw ould make a difference?


or takign things into his own hands and makign sure no bastard ever comes near his house again?
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  #30  
Old 02-08-2004, 06:43 PM
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he died outside. they had been in his house. fair enough they were running away but who;s to say they wouldnt just come back tooled up?
Because if you start arguing pre-emptiveness as a reason for self defense you have rubbed out the line.
they were there with the sole intention of breaking into his house. when people start stabbign each other for knockign pints over then u can complain but when u know someones coming for u then why not?
Because if you know they are coming for you, there are other alternatives.
such as phoning the police who would either ignore him or take ages to come,
Here you are jumping to conclusions about the police to support it though. His actions were not clear cut self defence & hence why he was convicted. Some may say he's a hero, but in the eyes of the law & our society as it is today some will say he crossed it.

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hiding and letting them tsake what they wanted

locking his doors and windows as if thatw ould make a difference?
He obviously knew some time in advance that they were coming. The alternatives are endless.


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or takign things into his own hands and makign sure no ******* ever comes near his house again?
Or another way of putting it would be pre-emptive vigilanteism. This case isn't clear cut enough to declare Martin a hero or a villian.
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