Who Voted for Hitler?

I'm not sure whether I get what you are trying to say? Would you mind making it clearer to me, please? Thank you. (this is not a joke, I'm serious, I struggle to understand what you just said)

How can you honestly believe a whole nation knew about the mass extermination of the Jews? They obviously knew Hitler was after the Jews but they for sure didn't know what his branding aimed at! No one in the world knew or could imagine this.

Do you actually know how a totalitarian system works??? Even 50 years later people were shot at the inner German border and they were not shot because of conviction or support! No, it's just about "you or them".

I agree this is part of the remorse.

Ever seen "The Wave" or even "Fight Club"!?

For many Germans I'm saying the anger was not at what they had done, either themselves or as a nation, but what had been allowed to happen - that the Soviet had been allowed to defeat the Nazis (remember of course military losses were not well-reported to the Germans until the very end)... for some the loss in war was a surprise. The Nazi government assured the population that the Soviet would want want revenge for the attrocities committed in the invasions into the USSR since 1941, which of course turned out to be exactly the case in many situations: many women gangraped, people needlessly killed, even Jews killed escaping from concentration camps because it was not quite clear that they were victims themselves.

I actually have had to write the essay on this today so I'll spend the time to backup my argument: I think they knew a) because of the trains passing through the towns with Jews, through gossip and rumours, through the fact that some were able to get close to the killings and to take photos: soldiers carried with them photos of murdered Jews along with photos of their families (that has been a shocking discovery recently - of course not for EVERY soldier). In a radio broadcast Goebbels, even accidentally slipped and alluded quite explicitly to the extermination (by mentioning the word "extermination") of Jews... he stopped himself mid sentence and demanded that the transcripts show the intended version of his speech, but for any German listening it was obvious what had been said in the first place. Wait a minute, this is the best part of all!!! It was even a SLOGAN OF THE WEEK for September 1941 and therefore printed and circulated:

"Should the international Jewish financiers, succeed once again in plunging the nation into a world war, the result will not be the victory of the Jews but the annihilation of the Jewish race in Europe."

That seems pretty explicit to me... plus of course soldiers wrote home to wives talking about the killings.

On 16/11/41 Goebbels calls for an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth

it wasn't just "you or them" - they were a majority, not a minority. I'm saying that it is easy to understand that there were pressures to conform, but that some Germans also found it easy to cross a line: from being a "yes i support the party" person to a "and i'm prepared to prove it" - by for example assisting in the shootings of Jews - because the task was so enormous before the introduction of the gas chambers ordinary citizens were asked to assist in the shootings, but they were not persecuted for saying "no", yet many helped out.

Ever seen "The Wave" or even "Fight Club"!?[/quote]

I've seen Fight Club yes

Hey, they thought Buchenwald was a factory. The thought jews had to work or were forced to leave Europe. Actually at the beginning it even was like that but from '41 on they really started the mass executions...well, now tell that to people who live in a war. It's not unusual that people are killed in a war (what explains that they didn't react on the photos). And then tell me how the hell you can care for people you don't even know when you have to see that you yourself and your family will come through? Blood is thicker than water.

and you conclude that from what?

if ordinary Germans knew about the extermination of the Jews, how do you explain the White Rose movement? They would have been pretty useless if everybody knew already anyway. Have you seen The White Rose? Or read the book? Personally, I think it should be mandatory reading for every single person in the world.

So if it was a shocking discovery recently, why would you think the masses would have known? Something that has been discovered recently seems to proof that it was a pretty darn well kept secret. And trains passing through a town with Jews on them is a far shot from being proof that people knew that they would end up in a gas chamber.

you just lost any and all credibility right here - if you had any in the first place. This is just racial slur nothing else.

er.. there is plenty of evidence of German citizens assisting in the 'capture' (so to speak) of Jewish people, there was a whole 'inform on your Jewish neighbour' culture at the time. It cant be denied.

Tell me why I have lost all credibility here? There is no racial slur there at all... I say "many helped out" - not that ALL helped out. As I said some were asked to assist in the killings - some said yes some said no.

I like the fact you say "if you have any in the first place" - the point is to debate and yet you say straight away that I have no credibility... it would be very interesting for me if I forwarded your response to my lecturer who is one of the leading Holocaust Historians in the world at one of the best universities in the world. My comments are based on his (and his colleagues) findings and I'm sure that as a Jew himself he would appreciate your comment that it is not a valid observation and in fact "racial slur"

Professor Nicholas Stargardt, Oxford University, England. It has come out in much of the WWII literature actually. I never say "a book says this therefore it is right" but I am saying that for many/some that is the case... maybe we have different ideas of what "many" and "some" are.

Now let me ask you a question: what are the sources of your information and your opinions? I haven't tried to "discredit" you if I don't agree with some of your comments yet you are very quick to do it to me.

Do you honestly think that if there was such a big program of persecution like that in your country that you would not find out about it, or that there would not be rumours/gossip spreading about it. There was nothing the German population could have done about it, but that doesn't mean that it was a complete surprise to them ALL.

above reason
because of letters from soldiers to wives
becuase of radio broadcasts and slipups from men such as Goebbels in speeches... if you heard bush use the word extermination: and then stop himself half way and choose a completely different word, you would still know what he meant.

Didn't say it is "proof" - i said it is part of many arguments to suggest that something was known: however much, however little.

But the Jews were only war casualties in so far that the killings took place during the war years. It wasn't a choice of "if i don't kill this man, they will kill my family" - I'm saying that in *SOME* cases ordinary citizens (especially also in for example Poland or Lithuania) were asked to assist and that they were in a position where they could say "no". In one incident in Lithuania locals were given vodka in large amounts before being "persuaded" to persecute Jews in the central square - in an interview with one of the persecutors the man attempts to blame the Nazis, but does not accept any sort of moral responsibility himself, his only excuse being "they gave us Vodka".

Tom

wait till Kev sees this..

I think Hitler was a good governant, only that he got obsessed with power.

(Bushy Boy is obsessed with power, but he isn't a good governor)

Hitler took Germany from being a Post-WW1 disaster, to be the most powerful country in Earth, until WW2, in only 6 years.

I think Mexico needs a gobernant like him urgently. Fox (the most loyal Bushy Boy's slave) is making our country an anarchic paradise

Dot.

I only ever pull that trick when someone pisses me off - in this case some US ***** calling me a racist ( )

goose, believe it or not....i actually have the utmost respect for the students of Oxford and Cambridge Universities