Who Voted for Hitler?

She is German actually, just living in the US..

Thank you for explaining. I do not agree. The Soviets had not been allowed, they just defeated the Germans - and rightfully so. Although I believe Stalin was as dangerous as Hitler was and if it wasn't Hitler it would have been Stalin who went to war.
You say military losses were not well-reported but you believe many knew about the Holocaust? Oh well, then so be it

If you'd sitten in flat-bombed cities since 1943 you would have believed in the final victory?? Only for fanatics it was a surprise.

There was no need to assure this - everyone knew. You wouldn't believe the fear and tension when in some areas Americans had to leave and Soviets walked in because of higher decisions.

Trains weren't passing through towns a lot. These trains often rolled at night. And even if it was true, yeah, the Germans obviously knew Hitler was after the Jews and that he wanted to get them out of Europe, but no one knew HOW it really worked.
Rumours? Ok. I agree there for sure were rumours. I have two things to say about rumours:
a) Rumours mostly come up amongst the people that are effected by them - the Jews. (One other example: rumours about the box set appear amongst BJ fans, I doubt many 'ordinary' people have ever heard one word about a BJ box set.)
b) Be it that rumours were there nevertheless: had you really believed them? It's easy from today's view cause we all know it had happened. Just think one second those 12 years of history do not exist and then tell me would you dare to believe your head of state kills zillions of people just for what they are??

The photos, well, spunkywho said it: finding out about it recently tells me that it wasn't what happened a lot. Plus, would you tell everyone that your son has to kill Jews IF you knew?

In ONE radio broadcast? I even tell you they did it in a lot more!!
Yet, this says nothing. Hitler, Goebbels etc. always spoke in fatal terminology. They liked that. So?
Hitler said himself "the bigger the lie the more people follow".

Again, yeah, they knew he wanted them out of Europe but who could actually believe this reads "We'll kick all these bastards in huge stoves."?

But they weren't!! It was a well organized totalitarian system led by a few, enforced downwards by a lot of people who liked to have power over others.
I guess the majority you mean refers to the members of the party. But that's simple, many people joined just to be left alone. It was the same in the later GDR, if you were in the party and stayed calm you had absolutely no problems and could live a decent life.

Yes, that is probably true - some Germans, but that's not the reason why so much went so fvcked up.

These are shocking facts that by far don't represent ordinary Germans.

Then please try to watch "The Wave" and maybe you'll find some parallels.

It isn't denied. Many people felt pressure from above and felt it's better to accept what is said than to rebel for some ideals.
But what IS denied is that the ordinary German knew Jews were burnt in huge chambers built extra for that purpose.

Finding particular cases recently and telling this is how it worked back then, is indeed not a valid observation.

I'm not at Oxford but believe me we deal a lot with the topic here in Germany,too, be it in school or university (and my studies had nothing to do with history at all) and we don't see it through pink glasses. We know we didn't looked good in both world wars but it ain't that easy either as some want to put it.

I agree, not a surprise as if they didn't know. BUT definitely a surprise and therefore also the remorse that it is actually true what they might have heard through eventual rumours.
I can only say it again, it is easy to question all that from today's point of view when we truely know this all happened, sadly.

No, but you would be eventuylla shot by the Nazis.

Are you kidding?? Not one thing is true.

There was no NO. Do you even know what they did with everyone who didn't do what they should? In the end they were killed just for doubting a victory in the war or having contact to a jew. There WERE people who said no. But we all know what has happened to most of them. And about the vodka...have you ever been that drunk that you couldn't tell right from wrong anymore? There are a lot of people who become aggressive when they're drunk and there are more of those people than you'd think of. The only alternative tehy had is not drinking more...but try to stay dry in such a situation...

just that it wasn't well-reported doesn't mean people didn't know... some genuinely didn't realise though, just as some/many didn't realise aobut the Holocaust.

The Holocaust was largely on the Home Front whereas the Soviet wars were of course on the Eastern Front, outside of Germany until the very late stages


Fatal terminology wasn't always used - it was used much more towards the end of the war in times of defeat in order to ensure people remained loyal to the Party.

Don't get me wrong I'm not saying for one minute that ALL germans participated - that is the complete wrong thing... in fact that is the thing that of course a lot of the early history of the period almost tried to convey. In fact the more interesting cases are of those who tried to resist: one general refused orders of the Einsatsgrupen (spelling?) to kill Jewish Russians: wives and children... his appeal not to do so went through a few stages of bureaucracy before he was basically told that if you don't do it we'll get someone else who will. His men did it therefore.

So of course there are cases of extreme coercion and peer pressure, but I'm just trying to say that there were also some cases of active and voluntary participation, when there was not necessarily even the need to volunteer or participate.

Not once have I tried to say they do! I'm always using "some" or "many", never ALL.

Actually the population greatly policed itself through denunciations and informing. The Nazi hierarchy was quite cleverly setup in a sort of triangle formation to keep the Fuhrer outside of any misdeeds lower down in the hierarchy. But of course the resources of the Nazis were not so vast as to cover the whole population, and it relied heavily on cooperation from below.

As usual some do things/some do not:

some carried photos and wrote passionately about killings in diaries

some write of utter disgust in diaries: the one area where it was thought safe to convey such ideas

some wrote of how they didn't want to do it but felt pressured to or did so anyway

It's always a mixed bag - this is meant to be a discussion, not an argument. If it is an argument please tell me what my argument is because all i'm trying to do is give some information that I know about and would like to, and have enjoyed already, hearing other information from others, because it is an endless debate with no right or wrong answers - hence the reasons it is a very active historical topic in the 1990s to present.

Again learn to read my writing properly: not saying that is "how it worked!" -i'm saying that is how it worked in some cases... some towns embrace Nazism from start, some do not... some people do, some do not...

Actually Germany was in a very strong position relative to other countries postwar, despite reparations etc. Between November 1923-nov 1929 there was the so-called "golden years" - Hitler only became popular around about 1931/2 and there are many reasons for that: partly because he seemed like the most attractive alternative to the Weimar republic.

They weren't THE most powerful country on earth necessarily at all either - there industry, technology and economy was constantly improving from about 1880s onwards... it was partyl (not only) inflation and the economic crash which pushed people towards extremist parties.

I'll answer this later, but are you trying to say that you're accepting "I was so drunk" as an excuse. I find that when i'm incredibly drunk i still know right and wrong. People who blame their actions on alcohol I don't like.

It doesn't excuse it completely but decreases their guilt. Alcohol is a drug and if you believe it or not it can take your common sense like every other drug. MAybe you are one of the persons who don't become aggressive at all when they are drunk. Myself, I'm happy to be one of those persons, too. But not everyone is like that. It's in the psyche of some people. Often they aren't even responsible for it. They couldn't choose their genes. But what they've really done wrong is drinking too much. They should have known when it was enough. It's hard but they should have stopped and that's what they are to blame for.

The reason I don't find your statements very credible is because your arguments lack definition. Your leading Holocaust Historian may have presented a wonderful and convincing lecture, but I don't see you recapping it very well. At least not with much credibility. All I read is a very very simplified version of a truly complex chapter of history.

And this is the part I find particularly distasteful some Germans also found it easy to cross a line: from being a "yes i support the party" person to a "and i'm prepared to prove it".

I don't know if this is a little off-topic but I think I'll post it anyway.

I'm about to start reading Anne Frank's Diary this weekend. I've had it for ages now but for some thing ot other never got round to reading it. In a way this topic about something I dond't know much about gave me the little push I needed.

I know Anne's family were hiding in a house in the Netherlands, but still - what about all those Germans that did risk their own lives to keep Jews in hiding? What about those who helped them get out of the country? Compared to the large figures of the Holocaust these seem like small numbers, but I don't think they are at all. Plus, there's such courage behind it that they deserve much more attention than they usually get.