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  #1  
Old 09-16-2014, 11:28 AM
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Default Will Scotland go solo?

Anyone else as excited as I am? And is it selfish of me to hope that Scotland votes YES just to see how it will impact international politics going forward? The prospects are soooo exciting. It might well lead to the collapse of the entire Western state system (yes, big words there...but it just JUST might). Who next? Catalonia? Bavaria? Quebec? Emiglia-Romana? There's so many candidates. And then what? Scotland joining the EU when the 'UK' is leaving? Exciting times....I wish I was in University right now. So much to study and debate.

Thoughts?
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Old 09-17-2014, 06:48 PM
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I'm going to say my bit then respectfully decline from getting involved in this one because I've got to the point that I'll not be able to hold my tongue but what this has degenerated into at ground and grass roots level is disgusting.

The police are having to man larger polling stations and thousands of Yes campaigners march on the BBC because they feel a journalist ( a very highly regarded and senior journalist at that ) has slighted them? Leaders of our national parties can't speak on the streets because large mobs are screaming them down?

I'm out hanging up placards and going door to door canvassing and people are screaming at me, threatening violence and threatening to stab me?

I could go on for hours giving examples and I know my side have a nefarious element too but it's truly been a sad month for the democratic process and the tension and division this has brought up (in a country already permeated with sectarian aggro) isn't going to disappear come Friday morning.
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Old 09-17-2014, 08:51 PM
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I have to say Jim - that everything you listed there sounds like our current Republican Party. They are subverting the democratic process by repeatedly trying to discredit the current Democratic President. No matter the issue, if he is for it - they are against it. Right down to instituting lawsuits against him. But also neglecting to do their congressional duties at the same time. They are not representing their people, they are out on a witch hunt and they won't stop until he is out of office. They did pretty much the same thing to Clinton when he was President. Our government is for all intents and purposes - shut down for the duration.

I sincerely hope that does not happen to Scotland. Whichever way the vote goes I hope people manage to come together again and live together again in relative peace.
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:40 PM
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I don't think anyone has a clue what to expect in the event of either outcome tbh.

The YES campaign has been so aggressive and vociferous in every aspect that I can't see it all being calmly put aside in the event of a vote for the union and on the other hand, a YES win could see anything up to and including a mass exodus of population as well as business. I would certainly be considering upping sticks and moving south if the YES campaign gets its way - that is if the outcome doesn't knock +20% off of the value of our home!

Keeping fingers crossed that some common sense wins out here particularly given that the result is too close to call according to a number of polls.
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Old 09-17-2014, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS8MB0R8 View Post
I don't think anyone has a clue what to expect in the event of either outcome tbh.

The YES campaign has been so aggressive and vociferous in every aspect that I can't see it all being calmly put aside in the event of a vote for the union and on the other hand, a YES win could see anything up to and including a mass exodus of population as well as business. I would certainly be considering upping sticks and moving south if the YES campaign gets its way - that is if the outcome doesn't knock +20% off of the value of our home!

Keeping fingers crossed that some common sense wins out here particularly given that the result is too close to call according to a number of polls.
Well I don't know a bunch of Scottish people but you and Jim have always been the voices of reason here. Upon doing more research myself I have to agree with both of you that a NO vote is the way to go. Unfortunately the passions are running so high that as Jim said - it isn't all going to go away on Friday morning - whatever the outcome.
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Old 09-18-2014, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kathleen View Post
Upon doing more research myself I have to agree with both of you that a NO vote is the way to go.
I just asked a friend who researched this subject for the last TWO years to explain to me why people would vote YES outside the core SNP populist base. [He is actually one of the leading political scientists researching this at the University of Edinburgh. Google him - he's all over the media right now: Jan Eichhorn].

Just quoted some of his answer below.

Quote:
Hey dude - the majority of Scots don't believe either side on the issue and is not basing their opinion on that specific thing - this debate helped reaffirm existing views for people who had made up their mind but didn't shift undecideds.

For the majority of Scots who support independence (of course I am not speaking for everyone, but about majorities and averages based on our surveys) there are pragmatic core issues that are associated with their decision.

Number one is the expectation about how Scotland's economy would do (note specifically the economy overall, not specific welfare promises for example which the "average" Scot is pretty similar in attitudes to as the "average" English person actually). Those who think the economy would do better, vote nearly all yes.

But there are other concerns that matter, too. Social inequality is a key one. The notion that Britain worked for 300 years is not shared by all. It may externally, but the rise of people using foodbanks and a demographic stratification in Scotland that means certain areas have life expectancies of just over 60 and others over 80 mean for people in those areas that some of those areas that they fundamentally disagree with a notion of a union that works.

For other groups independence is their chance to get rid of nuclear weapons (and potentially reinstate a new debate on them in the UK if the costs of relocation would be enourmous as it seems would be the case). There are some people who have been in the anti-nculear weapons movements for decades who see this as a chance to make a major change. It is a minority, but a substantial one for whom this is the vehicle for one of the most important issues in their lives.

One thing that is different in this debate is that a large group of people - 20-30% of the electorate, that never take part in elections are taking part in this referendum, not just by voting as it seems considering the polls and surveys, but also in the preceding debates. Therefore what it means for a country to "work" reflects views of poorer and tradionationally more disenfranchised people more than usual. They are still underrepresented of course, as in any political discourse, but all groups that tradiotionally are less engaged are more engaged here than at any previous occasion in recent decades here.

I don't want to create the impression that Yes is only supported by lower SES voters. Not at all - as outlined above, there are multiple groups supporting it. But it is within that group that the greatest amount of political activity has taken place. And I can simply not dismiss arguments that from that perspective appear fully valid to me (which is, again, not the same as me necessarily subscribing to them). Thanks for asking! I genuinely appreciate anyone who wants to discuss these issues rather than just making up their mind as I have seen other people outside Scotland do without asking any questions....
Anyhow - interesting day today!
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Old 09-18-2014, 01:53 PM
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Honestly, there's idiots on both sides of the campaign like there is with anything.

From pretty patronising marketing from the UK government ("if you don't know vote NO" - which is the most astonishing thing I think I've ever read. Surely it should be if you don't know, go and ****ing find out") to the eejits who will only vote YES because of some dumb historical viewpoint that they hate the english, neither side comes out smelling of roses.

However I'd say in contrast to Jim's viewpoint that for the majority - even those who disagree with each other - the debate seems to have been pretty healthy, but then I haven't been knocking on doorsteps trying to push people to a certain side.

I'm conflicted personally in a lot of ways. My wife's english and I don't want her living in a foreign country that she hasn't chosen to do, but at the same time I think the current political system in the UK is completely broken and completely skewed to one side and whilst it may be more of the same under any new government, if you don't change anything you'll never know.

So I'm going to vote later, and I still don't actually know which way I'm going.
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Old 09-18-2014, 07:18 PM
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It's like I've been saying on Facebook mate, voting NO isn't a vote against change. If the YES and NO campaigners actually realised that there are common arguments in both camps, they could work very well together as one voice to apply pressure and force change to the UK system, rather than just seek to break away and everybody fight their own corners.

The heated emotional response to this whole referendum could be harnessed and put to great use going forwards. Where there's a will, there's a way.

In truth, the NO campaign has been completely hijacked by Cameron et al. They think that things can be allowed to stay as they are but that's not what NO voters are about. We want change too but just feel that Scotland going independent is not the best way to achieve it.
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Old 09-19-2014, 03:10 AM
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Today unfortunately marks what would be the 30th of my closest friend who was taken from us too early.

Me and my dad (who managed to keep his shit together and not banjo anyone, go Jimi!!!) Did a 5 hour stint outside a station today. I've got a degree in politics but nothing has got me riled up like this ever abd whatever the result, I'm sure down the line I'll tell my nephew ( and heaven forbid my grandson!!!) that me and theur granpa took it to the streets.

I'm off to bed now safe in the knowledge that the people of Scotland have spoken and I only hope that whatever the result, we remain a prosperous and peaceful nation.

Quis seperabit my friends, quis seperabit.
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Old 09-19-2014, 11:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RS8MB0R8 View Post
It's like I've been saying on Facebook mate, voting NO isn't a vote against change. If the YES and NO campaigners actually realised that there are common arguments in both camps, they could work very well together as one voice to apply pressure and force change to the UK system, rather than just seek to break away and everybody fight their own corners.

The heated emotional response to this whole referendum could be harnessed and put to great use going forwards. Where there's a will, there's a way.

In truth, the NO campaign has been completely hijacked by Cameron et al. They think that things can be allowed to stay as they are but that's not what NO voters are about. We want change too but just feel that Scotland going independent is not the best way to achieve it.
I eventually did vote YES, and that wasn't to be but at least 45% of the population have indicated in a big way that they aren't happy with the status quo.

Now if only England and Wales and Northern Ireland would do the same we might see some real changes in this country.

The funny thing is Jude and I have been talking about moving down South anyway so she can be near her parents and that would have been the plan whether Independence happened or not, but the sheer disparity for example in house prices from Scotland to there looks like it'll make that virtually impossible.
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