I'm not saying it's going to turn out this way but my belief was that it was always going to come crashing down eventually. They've been riding the wave of mediocrity for so long it was only going to take something like this to derail the whole thing.

I genuinely feel the band should have called it quits years ago but instead they're limping to a finish-line that Jon obviously felt was farther away than it may actually be. Unless this whole Richie fiasco turns out to have been blown out of all proportion and he's actually just stubbed his toe or lost his bongos, Jon faces a huge decision as to whether to push on and try to regain some credibility here or to concede that there is no band or brand without everyone pulling in the same direction.

It's sad to think how far the band has fallen when you look back on their career.

Interesting to hear that Bob Rock said before KTF, they were a gang whereas once Jon fired Doc McGee and oversaw the band's management, it became Jon and the band. Was that the point that it all started to go wrong?

Jon's always believed and spun it that him taking over the management of the band saved it but is it possible that it was actually planting the seeds of the band's decline? Probably a discussion for another thread but the decline has been pretty big over the last number of years.

You raise very interesting questions! Definately worth discussing.

yes, a great topic to be discussed :) I never thought of it being the beginning of the end. It's a bit like having your parent as your manager. Never works, conflict of interest.

Me neither. Because Keep the Faith and These Days (and Always & Saturday Night) followed, I always assumed that Jon was right in his interpretation because all their peers disappeared when Bon Jovi survived.

But then they did so internationally rather than in the US in the 90s and it could be argued that Doc laid the foundations for that international success in the 80s. Not saying I subscribe to that because the quality of the music and new direction obviously helped but there is a valid argument there.

All that being said, you still have to give Jon credit whatever you view. They've been immensely successful in the 20 years since and that's quite an achievement regardless of your opinion of the quality of their music.

I really don’t see it this way at all.

They still put on great shows, and I enjoy the music they even release today, as still do a lot of people, so why should they call it a day unless they as a band aren’t enjoying it anymore?

Of course they are not at their creative or performance peak anymore, which isn’t surprising. No band is after a 30 year career. But neither are they playing country fairs, like many of their 80’s counterparts and I think the band would call it a day before it ever got to that sort of level.

This Richie thing – whatever it is – may not even ever come to light. I’ve no doubt he’ll be back playing with the band before long, but after this tour I can’t see another for awhile, but I don’t think you’ll see Bon Jovi doing an REM and announcing their retirement.

You are still hugely dedicated to the band, though and I am not knocking that one bit but your number is dwindling with every album and every tour that sees set lists diluted with newer, inferior songs.

The 'inferior' part might be my opinion but it's tough to argue against the fact that Jon looks in the mirror at his band and sees one thing, while the rest of the world sees something else.

I will give you one example... The headline act, Sunday night at Isle of Wight is not reserved for a contemporary, relevant rock band. They weren't booked for that slot because of the great HAND album...

Just to add - as I mentioned months ago, if Jon doesn't up his game and start being a frontman again, the days of him winning over crowds who aren't there to see him will be gone as well. I mentioned in another thread about how friends who weren't Jovi fans became converts in the 90s because of the energy of this band live. Age is NOT a barrier to this; proven by how Jon seems to have upped his game since Richie's no-show...

I couldn't disagree more. When you put out 4 albums in a row so successful, both creatively and commercially, as SWW, NJ, KTF and TD, how can you expect to get better than that? The band declined in the early 2000s because it was meant to be. Today Jon might sit and decide to write another Dry County, I'm convinced he couldn't. So I take what this band has to offer today and if I enjoy it, that's fine.

I agree with this.
I will say this though...........
The band imo didnt need to release WAN and tour so soon after The Circle tour came to an end.
They should have vanished for some years and then come back hungry. I think the album and tour so soon is all to do with JBJ and not seeing BJ in the list of highest grocing touring acts for last 18 months - not due to low numbers but due to them not touring.
He wants them back on that list and knows they will top it at the end of 2013/14.
Maybe this tour is too much for RS so soon after Circle tour ended, his own solo album and tour plus now this huge tour?
As I said. They should have come back in say late 2015 early 2016.
They have the fanbase to do so and its not as if people would forget who they were.

yeah agree.

The band peaked with those 4 albums - no way on earth they can keep that standard going. No one could. Maybe the Beatles but no one else.