Well if you put it like that, Jon's voice started getting worser since 1982 after he finished puberty :D because ever since then he slowly started loosing his range, but like you said, he always knew how to work around it till 96 because untill then he had a pretty wide vocal range (at least by my standards) and he could still give us great performances. The real downfall was in 2000 in my opinion but if u wanna push it a little bit you can say that the real downfall happened after the OWN tour because after that Jon lost alot of his range.

Energy wise I would say that their greatest period was in April and May 1993. Those shows are so freaking amazing.. it was like they were playing for their lives.

Vocal wise I can't really tell which year was the best because I have no ideea what great vocals mean by some peoples standards. Was it in 86 when he probably sang the key change on LOAP? Was is it in 84-85 when he did the ending vocals on Runaway? Was it in 88-90 when he did those screams on Livin In Sin and those extended outros on IBTFY? Was it in the spring of 93 when he gave his everything during the whole show or the shows from 91? Or was it in the summer of 1995?

If I could go back in time I would definitely go back in 95 because by that time they had all their greatest songs released and I could watch them perform most of them.

The only utter nonsense if you obsessively trying to call me out on everything I post.

The fact of the matter remains that no one knows the real deal or cause of Jon's vocal issues besides Jon, his doctors, and his vocal coach.

My explanation is no more of an opinion than yours...

It could be from smoking, it could be from abuse, it could be from both, or it could be from neither. This could have been his chords natural regression. Jon's always been a trained singer so maybe this is how it would have ended up regardless.

I was the one who suggested a separate topic because I'm interested in learning more about this in regards to other artists. Mariah Carey lost some of her voice. Does she smoke? John Mellencamp chained smoked for years. How did his voice hold up? These are all interesting things I'd like to dive into.

You come here and act like your statements are the final word but all in all, you are no more than a guess like the rest of us.

There lies your problem. How can you say that he's always been a trained singer if you don't know anything about singing ? I'm not saying this in a bad way, but the example that Seb mentioned (the car analogy) was spot on. If you'd know a little bit about singing, you'd clearly notice that it is the opposite. He was a natural, was born with a brillant voice, but he has never been a high skilled trained singer. He could work around it due to coaching and training, but his voice reached such a bad state that he can't work around it anymore.

I started working with music the last few years, I'm a newbie on the subject, but, I've been studying a lot and I have managed to open my own studio here in my city. So I work with bands night and day, and I learned a lot about singing. WIth that being said, it's nonsense to say that he has always been a trained singer.

This is a discussion board. I have learned a lot of things here over the years, and I've never been ashamed to admit that I didn't had a clue about certain issues. There's nothing wrong with that man.

I think a lot of bands in the 80s centered around a frontman with a natural voice who could sing (or a frontman with so much charisma that it didn't matter if he had a great voice or not). Chances are that there was little training involved with the exception of some vocal coaching as the rock screams and touring took its toll.

Obviously smoking isn't the best thing but unless there has been recent changes Bobby Bandiera still smokes and seems to have kept his voice. Richie may or may not be still a smoker but was smoking after Jon gave it up. One of Jon's idols --Sinatra-- was a smoker.

I often see touring musicals and am blown away by the voices I hear and these singers sing nightly in productions. A rock concert has a whole different standard of what makes a good show. There is such a machine behind Jon of sound and lights that the shows carry on full force even if the voice isn't there. If the show can deliver energy, the audience will get caught up in it. The loss of Richie is not only his voice but the staged comraderie between the two and the relationship Richie himself had with the audience. That is missing; it has been replaced but not replicated.

Aloha !

But that's the thing. The people in touring musicals are naturals and get a lot of training by vocal coaches. Anyone who has a bit of a clue as to how singing works would know Jon's not a trained singer. Far from it, because a trained singer just wouldn't make the mistakes he makes when it comes to breathing and reaching the notes. What Jon does is hitting the notes, and anyone can hit the notes with a bit of effort. A singer however sings the notes, knows how to reach them and knows what his limits are. Ask any singer in a musical what he thinks of the way Jon sings and they'll flat out ridicule him because most of it doesn't have a lot to do with singing.

And as for Richie smoking... Richie's voice hasn't hold up as well as people would like to believe. I'll Be There For You on the Bounce tour was pretty good, but after that his range seriously detoriated and once you're isolating his backing vocals you'll either won't hear him because he's miming, or because he's just not hitting the notes. I'll Be There For You sounds rubbish nowadays when he sings it, because he's shouting the words. He's just lucky he's capable of hitting the right notes while doing so.

Like efpg0708 said, Jon was born with a great voice. He just used it in the wrong way, learned how to sing with a vocal coach in 1989 and then blew it by smoking and drinking too much. The vocals for the first 3 records might sound nice to you, but it's not singing what he does and it's why he blew his voice out during the Slippery tour. Jon's been pushing his voice to the limit with every subsequent tour, night after night, and does no warming up shows in between tours. If I'd use another car analogy (because yes, I love my cars) his voice like a car that hasn't run in a year, and then drives it at the speed limit for a few months. Your car will break down, and so does Jon. It's why his voice sounds the way it does, and you don't need any insight from doctors or whatever. If you do, that's your lack of wisdom, not everyone's lack of knowledge regarding this issue.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

I'm not a singer by any means but I did take lessons for couple of months to help with singing in the right key and stretching my vocals a couple of octaves. Nothing big I just wanted to record my demos without it sounding so bad lol. But anyway, the first thing they corrected in me was how I used to close my throat instead of opening up when I went for the higher notes. Which is why it's so surprising when I see Jon live he does that same mistake. It's especially noticeable in 'Born to be my Baby' when he says "Deep insaheeeeeed", opening up the vocals and holding the "ah" a little longer would be much easier to hit those notes and it would sound better too. And that's something that he does throughout the show.....

Seb, I agree with you. I am curious about the reviews of the future 2016 tour. I recall up to and including The Circle tour reviews noted the "still youthful" lead singer (can't say that now), or remarked on his tight pants / cut to the navel shirts or his taking off his shirt and making the audience scream with delight (can't say that now). The WAN reviews remarked a lot on the stage and production, the energy of the show and how the crowd responded to the old hits.

Disregarding looks and his voice, what IS still the same is that Jon can still interact with and engage the audience but that depends of his ability to fill those stadiums and arenas next year which may be more of a problem.

You don't have to be a singer to understand the band you've been following for 30 years... And maybe I'm not using the right word as "trained". Naturally Gifted Singer?

I'm not going to get into every single story because I'll be here all day but for starters, we've all heard early demo work from Jon and let's face it, he's no Luther Vandross... Also, there are stories where his father sent his cousin Tony down to hear him sing and Tony said that he was just okay.... Jon has vocal talent, nice tone, and a few strengths like his signature scream that he plays off of but his voice was also crafted. Jon never had a perfect live voice in terms of technique. Even during his prime, you could hear him reaching for notes. He wasn't flawless but rock singers don't have to be and could get away with it... Obviously... Back in the day, you could see it on Jon's face but it just wasn't as nearly challenging for him as it is today...

Just like some people could pickup a guitar and play it from ear while others take lessons to learn how to play... Jon is a trained singer who learned how to sing extremely well and utilize his strengths but he's no Whitney, George Michael, or Mariah...

Who's talking about understanding the band ? That's one thing. Another thing completely diferent is analyzing singing techniques by watching a singer sing.

If you know NOTHING about singing, you can follow a band for one million years and you won't notice the mistakes that the singer makes when it comes to the right techniques.

Of course Jon had some coaching when he started. But he didn't put too much effortinto it, hence his voice blewing off on the Slippery Tour. When you watch the videos from that era (and for the consecutive tours), it's pretty clear that Jon shouts the notes, even on his signature scream. He doesn't reach the notes with the right techniques. He was lucky that he had a fantastic voice back then, but the lack of training and techniques blew off his vocal chords.

If he was a trained singer with a crafted voice, why did he blow off his voice in the 80's and completely lost it when he got older ?

I'm not going to discuss this any further. Your signature "the world's most Knowledgeable..." is a hint that you think you know it all and you refuse to accept that there are things you're not familiar with. You've shown that on a lot of discussions here on this board, and for me, that's arrogance. Following a band for 30 years doesn't give you knowledge and expertise at every aspect of how everything about music works.

A lot has been said about Jon's voice, I agree it sounds like shit and torn to pieces. On the other hand, I love the energy he is bringing now. He actually walks around the stage and tries to perform again - that was missing too.

Our 2 "new" guitar players are killer and the band itself is great.