The Beatles were together for a pretty measly 10 year period, and released a lot of crap and filler material in addition to obviously a handful of classic albums (10+ albums in a few years plus endless compilations, quantity over quality in that case..'64 or '65, can't remember)

Not comparing Bon Jovi's music to the Beatles, but SWW, NJ, KTF, TD (and Blaze?) during a 10 year period is a far more consistent effort in my opinion than the Beatles output over a similar time. I love the Beatles of course, just saying. Bon Jovi's run from 86-96 is very impressive, and more prolific than some people give them credit for.

Andi

You could well be right. But I guess there are two dimensions to this for me.

1. The natural decline
2. Decisions exacerbating the decline

All bands get worse as they get older so BJ are no different in that respect. Someone mentioned The Beatles but they only lasted a decade and you look at McCartney's music now. It's not a patch on earlier work so, even for the best, decline is going to happen at some point.

However, for Bon Jovi, is the decline partly a result of the band being sidelined because Jon believes that his is the only vision that matters?

Take IML as a small example. It's a great tune but that "Like Frankie said I did it my way" line is not great in my opinion. Richie didn't want it in there but Jon openly admits that he forced the issue and got that line in there. He says it like it was a good thing, I'm not so sure.

We all know that for SWW, Richie was the driving force in Prayer making the album. That was when they were 'a gang' rather than Jon and band. If SWW was made in 1992-2013, would the song have made the record or would Jon have just said "My band, my management, I'm the CEO and I make the decisions"?

Look at Bounce. Some dogshit songs on there (AALY, YHMFH) and some great demos left out (Another Reason To Believe, Postcards From The Wasteland). If Richie has more of a say, do those songs make the record? They aren't as good as KTF and TD songs IMO but they are better than what made the record. It seems that even Jon and Richie acknowledge that Bounce (or parts of it) was sub-standard now.

The increased focus on politicising the songs seems more a Jon thing to me than Richie. I believe Richie would rather be writing stuff like You Can Only Get So High and Seven Years Gone while Jon wants to write calls to arms (because they've been successful before) and political songs (because he has developed a very admirable social conscience).

I'm not saying that the decline started with KTF. It didn't. KTF and TD are the band's two best efforts for my money. But were they that good because Jon took control or in spite of Jon taking control? And were the seeds of the pace and scale of the decline sewn with Jon taking control of the management of the band and the sidelining of Richie (and David) as songwriters?

Like I say, it's hard to knock Jon because they have had incredible success and it's a discussion that we won't get a definitive answer to. Just interesting to knock ideas about.

Oh I know I'm a dwindling number. It's okay, I'm a Bon Jovi fan - I'm used to being the underdog ;)

But this band has meant so much to me over the years it would be a hard thing to let go of - but I want to be clear - this in no way makes me blind to their faults.

It's not just me though. My wife's been a fan longer than I have and she enjoys the music too. Brokenpromiseland became her favourite song ever.

I was thinking about this earlier. Jon is a work-horse. At least when it comes to writing and recording music. So, why not just do a solo record? Is he afraid of failure without the band? Can he not tolerate playing in anything less than 20,000 seat arenas?

Jon admitted Tico didn't want to go back to work so soon. We all know Dave has a successful career writing music for Broadway. Hugh is essentially just a session player, so what does he care? Richie obviously cares about his solo career, even if few people do.

I think it comes down to Jon being afraid to take too much time off, coming back and having it be labeled as nostalgia or just a money machine, even though we all know that's what it is anyways.

I'm not even sure it's that, though Jon being a work-a-holic is certainly part of it, I think it being the 30 year anniversary also has something to do with being out on the road again so soon.

Whether he likes it or not they are pretty much a nostalgia act now.
Look at how many new songs get dropped from the setlist so quickly.
OK Lost Highway aside - how many songs from HAND, Crush, Bounce and The Circle are played? People want the best songs and these albums dont contain the best songs. Good songs yes but great songs? No.
So where are the best songs from the band? 83-96. The old days.

For many it's 83-88 sadly. These Days songs haven't been on the setlists either.

KTF, BOR, SIBSN, and Always have been the most regular 90s songs on the setlists and every one of those has been dropped at some stage over the last few years.

Agree with the sentiment of your post though.

In which case though, any band who continues after they made it big is a nostalgia act.

No-one goes to see the Foo's because of Wasting Light, no matter how good it was. They go to hear Everlong and Learn To Fly.

Fair play to her; for my money, that tune is one of the best they've done on the last few albums and, along with a lot of other decent tunes I would have loved to see it get an airing live.

I am the same as you. We are all the same, even the most disillusioned people on this board still show a passion for it; which is an indication of just how far this band can burrow into your musical consciousness and despite the despair at what Jon continues to brand 'Bon Jovi' and kid himself is relevant, I still live in hope for something of substance... and maybe the odd dash from one side of the stage to the other, for old time's sake.

I think there is some sort of "curse" over WAN...since the begining it just wasn't meant to be...I think this will turn out as one of the biggest mistakes in their career

Nah. 10 years from now Jon considers WAN their finest hour. While lots of "us" will consider it "the day the music died." It is not about public opinion, it's about being stubborn.

Richie is major piece of the Bon Jovi puzzle no matter what Jon may think, "Seven Years Gone" and "Every Road Leads You Home" are better than the whole of "What About Now" IMO. The songs are lyrically and musically much more passionate and sophisticated.

Jon runs the whole "machine" now, which negates them ever being a band/team/family ever again. Jon can run his Soul Kitchen, run the tour system and whatever else he does, but when it comes to the music, its needs to be a band collaboration or at least him and Richie. Jon has lost that connection with his band and has lost the magic they once had.

Think about how many interviews theres been with the whole band or just 2 members together in recent years ??? There's been very few. Things are not well in the camp no matter how well Jon thinks he can run this thing.

What annoys me the most about interviews is that constant "me" and "my" -crap.

Have to disagree with that one. I've been a Foo's fan since the early days but Wasting Light is a triumph for a band who've been around as long as they have.

I truly cannot think of many bands to have released songs of that calibre after 20 years of making music. The difference is, they make music that they are comfortable with, without sticking in their comfort zone. In ten years time, when one of the Foo's watches Thor and WALK comes on, he'll still be able to appreciate it as a good tune AND be able to look himself in the mirror because they weren't chasing a fad. Now, if Army of One or Because We Can was over the closing credits of Iron Man 3, I imagine Richie would turn it off before the credits started to roll and stick Aftermath on to make himself feel better.

Was thinking this exact thing earlier (less the curse more the mistake). We could be witnessing one of those ones where in a few years Jon comes clean and says "We shouldn't have gone back in the studio and out on the road".

They were all embarking on their own solo endeavors, Tico enjoying Semi-Retirement, David on Broadway, Richie doing his thing and then BAM! Jon pulls them back in, seemingly against their will.

Even if they limp across the finish line of this tour fully intact as a band, one thing is for sure. We ain't gonna see them for a while. No one knows for sure why Sambo's gone AWOL so this is pure speculation but I truly believe its a sign that the short term future (next 10 years) of the band is hanging in the balance.

Your missing the point though - we're talking about nostalgia not how good the record is - and no-one goes to see the Foo's because of any song on wasting light, and Bon Jovi twenty years into their career released Crush which brought them a lot of new fans. I'm sure they'd be happy to look at It's My Life and be proud.

I hate that everybody is speaking as fact. We take a line from an interview, sometimes just a few words and formulate a whole story from it and think we know the personal lives of these people.

I would suggest that not one theory put out here regarding how these guys operate behind the scenes is true. Jon puts himself out there to be the target no doubt, but perhaps he does that on purpose. Everyone here who is passing off statements like Richie is unhappy as if it is a fact must actually know the guy, so if you do ask him when he will be back please.

I am all for the speculation, if nothing else it passes the time, but in truth we are all talking utter shit.

Jon is a prick: BULLSHIT
Jon is a nice guy: BULLSHIT
Richie hates the new output: BULLSHIT
Richie loves the new output: BULLSHIT
The band has no say: BULLSHIT
The band is hugely involved: BULLSHIT
Jon said something that suggests...: BULLSHIT
The band not saying something suggests......: BULLSHIT

It is all bullshit because none of us know. The only thing I will guess is that the band will be together in the next few years, they will release another album, and will tour again.

And in terms of the band being in decline, they have been for years, but only to us. We are a very select demo of the Bon Jovi audience; one that picks over every detail. I am not fond of anything post Bounce at all but there are certainly plenty of people who are, as much as can be expected from the band's current position in the music industry. They are not One Direction, the flavour of the month, but neither are they washed up has been's like their former peers.

We think they are here because we like to think we know everything. We can see that the songs are not as good because we have different reference points. I go to a lot of rock concerts and have been to loads over the years, and no rock, heavy metal, thrash, or other rock genre band has such a mix of age and type of fans. Bon Jovi does something right in this modern era whether we like it or not, personally I would prefer they did it with music I really enjoyed, but the truth is they have been doing it with music other people have enjoyed. Perhaps for many of us Bon Jovi is dead, but for millions of others it most certainly isn't.

Sure the album tanked but I would think even the stunning These Days would have sold similar if released today. It is simply the climate except for a few acts.

Edit: I want to clarify that What About Now is terrible in my opinion, but that is not the reason it didn't sell well out the gates, although it is the reason it will have no staying power.

We don't know the the ins and outs of the band behind the scenes but we can make intelligent (sometimes) observations on certain things. Also its called a discussion board for a reason.

How can you say that post Bounce is popular with millions of others outside this forum. Those albums with exception of a few singles were duds. My sister knows very little of the band, she heard WWBTF on X Factor and said "wow, why are they trying to do the same again", brother had same reactiom. The general public's last memory of Bon Jovi is "Its My Life" or possibly "Have A Nice Day".

No, I got your point, I just don't agree... I went to see them because of songs from that album. I think Wasting Light is possibly their best work as a whole.

Comparing it to Crush is a non-starter for me. Commercially, Crush did very well but it was a one-man team. It's My Life was a perfect storm moment for the band and the last time they were relevant. The rest of the album, bar the lyrics to Just Older, tails off into a Jon solo album and gave me my first glimpse at how horribly weak and bland this band could be.

I did not go to see Bon Jovi for any of the songs from Crush. However, Bon Jovi were still the best live band in the world for me in 2000, so I could even put up with the over indulgence of I Got The Girl and the general anaesthetic that was Two Story Town for the sake of seeing them get an entire stadium bouncing along like a small bar on a Friday night...

I clearly said that the discussion passes time so is understandable, and the fact I am participating in that discussion sort of shows that, so I am not sure what you are even talking about with that. In fact me saying you are all talking bullshit is still a part of the discussion.

Not intelligent observations, intelligent guesses maybe, but still a pure guess unless you know the people involved.

I am not talking about millions who have no interest in Bon Jovi, I am talking about others who are not on this board. Or do you think it is only this community that goes to Bon Jovi show, or buys an album? Again not sure what you are talking about but you seem to be in a bubble on here, I would not expect your sister to know them, but I would expect someone who buys and album and attends a show to at least know who the band is, outrageous I know. However, I do accept that now your sister and brother have passed comment that the world has spoken.

The truth is that they do sell tickets and do sell albums. WAN has tanked as I said, but I would imagine Have A Nice Day, Lost Highway, and the Circle together done between 7 and 10 million in sales, which is not bad at all considering the way the music biz has gone since 2006. And of course they have had several successful tours in that time. Do you think if every one of us here stopped going to the shows that the band would crumble? It would not, my point is and clearly was that we look at the band from a unique place, a place the rest of its fan base does not.

They could tour off the back of Backstager's who think they can do no wrong and casuals who go for the hits easily. Selling albums is another matter, but I suspect it would be an issue even if they made a masterpiece.

I only used Crush as a reference as they were released at similar points in the band's careers - for what it's worth I think Crush is a really good album - not their best for sure and with some weak songs at the end.

This is my thing with this band, on their day they really are still the best live band in the world - but Richie has been out of sorts for a few years, and then this tour it seemed like he's back in the groove but Jon wasn't at his full potential, and then Richie vanishes - it would just be nice to have them all back to top form.

Of course it's speculation. If you don't want rolling comment, read a frikkin' newspaper...

If you were trying to add a post to a discussion thread, you succeeded. If you were trying to add something to the discussion, you failed.

Agree with that, 100%.

I said before the BBC show, if Jon comes out and sells these songs, it could make the difference but he just hasn't.

As we discussed in reference to BPL and other recent songs; they will only become part of the fabric of this band if they get a good airing live. When I started watching this band, I'd Die For You was a live staple... not a favourite but Jon sold it live. Then came Sleep When I'm Dead etc... yes, these songs have been in the set for too long... which is why, I've got to be honest, I don't mind hearing WGIGO when I am at a show because it sounds like a Bon Jovi song and it's played with conviction.

I think you quoted the wrong poster here, it was someone else saying they didn't want rolling comment. If you take a quick look I did not.

However, it is speculation glad you could agree and are on my side with this.

I don't think the speculation is pointless, I think the people on here speaking in terms of fact are pointless. It you have not then you have a point, but if you have then your points have made no point and become pointless. Sure the point is based of something that happened, but usually it veers from having a point into being pointless. Do you get my point?

Jon rarely sells the classics anymore, so in terms of playing live does it matter what he writes? I want to listen to a solid album for sure, but even if he wrote a masterpiece he would still not sell it live, so then going by your example even a masterpiece would not become part of the fabric of the band.

Wow...that last paragraph must have the world record for usage of the word 'point' or a variation of it. I count 10 but I'm not usually good at these sorts of competitions.

Please tell me it was deliberate.

You make a good point, if there was a like button you would be liked sir, but there isn't so it's pointless.

I quote the right poster. You said you hate everyone speculating... if you are unable to take this fabulous, off-the-chain thread for what it is, then I don't think anything anyone writes in reply is going to make the slightest bit of difference.

You seem to wholeheartedly disagree with everything this thread and a discussion board stands for but you do it without actually stating any kind of argument/fact/opinion that I can grasp. You are either the smartest person in the room or the most vacuous poster I've ever had the misfortune to come across.

If everything is bullshit, then don't read it. Simple.

I am scared if you believe we are under the illusion that we're dealing in facts on this thread... I can't be sure but I don't think anyone truly believe Richie's last name is Sambongo and Jon killed his dog. Just chill out and have some fun...

Odd that you say that when you mentioned I Got The Girl earlier - never liked it - then they played it at Hyde Park 03 and it just worked. Maybe part of the moment, maybe something else - but I really appreciated the song and have liked it ever since, and that happens with a lot of songs in their catalogue.

I'm disappointed they haven't at least kept Love's The Only Rule, great, great live song. Until Richie returns though, I doubt we'll see much variation.

Yep, your IGTG reference is a perfect example... sometimes songs that you've ignored on an album just take on a life of their own live and I totally agree with LTOR...



DISCLAIMER - my posts are based on speculation. I don't really believe that Richie Sambora doesn't have a free hand to Tweet because he is up to his neck in booze and chicks

Sorry, but I did not say I hated everyone speculating, I am not sure where you got that from. I write what I mean, and what I wrote is that I hate that people speak as fact. I like this thread and have read it through and participated in it, and things like the dog are obviously neither fact or speculation and are just "fun".

Am I the smartest person in the room? What room? But to answer your question, yes I am, but then again I am alone.

In terms of what is bullshit. Everything that seriously professes to hint at what these guys are like. I exclude the obvious jokes. I am as entitled to read and post here as you are. Of course you do not have to reply to me or read what I write, but as we can make up anything here and it be passed ok, how do you really know that all of my recent posts have not just been for fun cause I am bored and out of smoke?

Point-tastic.

You said that you hated everyone posting as fact... by and large, no one is. We're having fun and from a personal point of view, this board hasn't been much fun for a long time, so I am enjoying it.

You went on a bit of an unnecessary rant and didn't really accomplish much other than to say the word 'point'... a lot and if your recent posts have been for fun, you have a warped sense of entertainment.

Get something straight Chief, I did not tell you not to post here... that's not my M.O. and you're absolutely right, I can ignore you but I never ignore people. The good news for you is, the people I ruck with on here are generally the people who I feel contribute the most and I end up enjoying their posts. But in your case, I have a feeling I might just make an exception.

:D I love it! Well done pal, and Indeed you might but we will see. I am not always bored and I usually have smoke.

Shhhhh, don't say another word, let's leave it at this frankly moving climax.

Do us all a favour, go and sell your crazy somewhere else... or I might start doing this...

Richie has left because Jon got angry when Richie refused to play 'touch the winky' before they went onstage... Tico cried because Jon shouted and David just screamed 'Smmmmmaaaaaaash!' and broke the tea set they were drinking from.

FACT.

Aloha !

Who's to say what is bullshit here? Just because you've got no access to any sources providing any information as to whether it's bullshit or not, doesn't actually make it not true. The "we don't know what goes in this band" often means no more than "I don't know what goes on in this band".

Very often the fans spouting off on how something they personally don't like is bullshit are those who don't know anyone they can vouch for when it comes to stories about the dynamics in the band. They won't accept any story that tells them something different to what they prefer to believe either.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

Come on Seb... it was 'touch the winky'... we all know it...

This was actually my point, the first part of what you just wrote.

On the second part, I love Bon Jovi's music until Bounce. I am not a huge fan, and am not the type that could tell you dates, when things were released or anything like that, I would not even call myself a fan as I do not like the implications of that. So I really have no image of the band that I want so much to be true. I understand what you are saying, but if any of these stories end up being true I will not care so there is potential of personal loss (even emotional) for me from this.

Anyway I have to go out now. I will not be reading back through pages, if you reply I may not see it,

OMFG! So Richie left because Jon wanted to touch his dog's winky but when Richie said he couldn't, Jon killed his dog? That's just f*cking sick man! :shock:

I seriously just shot snot onto my desk... too much info? Who cares.

I am even having trouble conjuring up the imagery to go with this and now I am wondering why I would want to!