Maybe so, maybe no. ;) Sometimes it's hard to tell.

I think the split in his brotherhood with Jon occurred far earlier.
We just finished the 2011 tour on our touring website (for those who are interested: https://bjtours.jimdo.com/let-s-go-o...bon-jovi-live/).

If you remember that tour, it was the first time that Richie had to be replaced on tour shows (beforehand it happened only once in Puerto Rico 2007).
During the 22 US shows with Richie he was allowed to sing a song in 21 of them.
When he was back for the European tour he was once allowed to sing a song...in 24 shows.

So I think those were the first cracks to be shown but couldn't be recognized by us because the rest of the masquerade was still too perfect.

When they started the Because We Can tour in 2013 he didn't sang at all during the 20 shows he played with them. Although he had just finished his solo tour and seemed to be in much better shape than Jon at that time...I remember discussions back then about Jon being sick or having other problems because he barely moved and sweated as hell after only 3 songs being played.
And like Tictoc already said, Richie looked healthy and focused in his playing.

So with all this stuff we know nowadays in mind I think back in 2011 it all started to go bad between Richie and Jon which finally escalated in his departure midtour in 2013.
Drugs and booze most probably were the reason for the start of their dispute but I don't think it was the reason for Richie leaving the band.

Richie once was quoted that the Stones wouldn't tour without Keith Richards. I don't know when exactly he said that, I think it was sometime around his departure...but maybe he thought that Jon wouldn't tour without him either and didn't show up to make a point. But unfortunately Jon made his point by going on without him.
I know, it's pure speculation, but to me that's the story that makes sense the most.

Are you sure about that? Setlist.fm has him singing I'll be there for you at his last show at Lubbock Texas.

Yeah, you got me! But Lubbock was the only one.

I mean it stands to reason that him not being allowed to sing a song as a reason for his departure that him singing one and then splitting doesn't make a ton of sense.

My point isn't that singing a song or not made him leave.
But that this might be a indication of how his relationship to Jon has changed after his rehab in 2011.
Even with him singing There 4 You in Lubbock makes it 1 in 20 which is quite a difference to 21 in 22 back in 2011.
Or if you'd like to go even further, in 2010 he sang in 81 of 83 shows.

I guess, yeah. In the North American legs Richie singing was a major pee/drink break. They'd give him a solo song or an album cut and then as the tour went on switch him to a band hit and even then it just didn't keep attention. It's possible they changed it up that tour because they were throwing six, seven songs off an unreleased album into the set, and then to have Jon not be on stage.....I kind of get it if that's the case.

Richie made the Jagger comment long after he left. It was sometime in 2014, I'm pretty sure. I still don't believe he thought Jon would stop the tour, bc he surely knows Jon better than that. I think that was a reaction to Jon's ultimatum that he tour or leave the band.

I didn't realize that Richie only sang once in the EU shows in 2011. But Richie and Jon both said, in 2012, that Richie would be promoting AOTL while they toured. Given the dispute they allegedly had over whether it was too soon to tour, I've wondered if one of the concessions Jon may have made was that Richie could still promote AOTL on the BWC tour, and if that was one of the reasons Richie agreed (other than not wanting to lose his place in the band). I know those three songs were included in the deluxe edition. But then that didn't happen. Lubbock was the only show where Richie sang a solo (which was IBTFY, not Every Road or another song from AOTL) and that was the last show Richie did with the band.

So while the number of solo spots may have been an issue;, I would guess that the bigger part was not being given an opportunity to promote Aftermath as promised. I don't know how much that may have influenced his decision; but I think it may have been a part of it.

I see your point but I don't agree with it.
Yes, especially in the US people used his song for a pee/drink break.
But that didn't seem to matter for quite a long time.
Since it's pure speculation we won't solve that matter.
But I still find it quite remarkable that after his missed shows in 2011 he only sang in 2 of 47 shows while before it was in 200 of 204 shows.

Richie singing a song:
Lost Highway Tour: 98 / 99
The Circle Tour: 81 / 83
Live 2011 before rehab: 21 / 22
Live 2011 after rehab: 1 / 24
Because We Can Tour: 1 / 23

Like I said before, my point isn't that his solo spot made him leave but that it indicates a change in his relationship with Jon ;)

I would agree with that if it weren't for a couple things. First, Jon would have known that prior to him and Richie both saying, publicly, that Richie would be doing some songs from Aftermath. Second, he's never let bathroom breaks stand in the way of doing songs he wanted to do. That whole "2 for you and 1 for me" thing.

But you're comparing the lull a new/unknown song reaction gets when Jon is on stage versus the guitar playing signing a song. Two VERY different things. This is strictly North America. From the 20 or so shows I've seen since 2002 that's a big thing I've noticed. Yes the dull songs can cause a pee break, a sit down or grab a drink. Jon flat out leaving the stage is ten times worse. It's usually one of my favourite parts of the show but you just can't compare the two.

Any other tour I would be with you guys and say "it's odd Richie isn't not signing one" but they made the stupid mistake of playing over half of an unreleased album. Jon and Richie did both say AOTL would be promoted but it wasn't a press release or a promise or anything. Jon also said New Years Day would open the THINFS tour and things changed.

I wasn't disagreeing. I think you're right.

Something else I've wondered about, since you brought up 2011, is how much rehab may have changed the way Richie saw his place in the band, as well as his relationship with Jon. If rehab is like other recovery stints, it probably involved a lot of self-assessment. Thinking about what Richie said in WWWB about his job being to keep Jon happy, and his obvious need to express himself through music, it's possible that the self-reflection in rehab could have made him realize how much of his adult life had been given over to the role of sidekick and that time was getting short if he ever wanted to do something on his own. He may have come out of that experience with a more assertive attitude, which could have led to more confrontations with Jon and higher demands for his own recognition.

It seems like a lot of that is reflected in the lyrics on AOTL; and it also makes me wonder if part of his contribution to Pictures of You might have been "No matter how I try, no matter what I do; I'm still painting pictures of you."

VERY good point, I agree.

That's all true. But it doesn't change the fact that Jon would have known all of that before he said it would happen. It might have been different if it was something they hadn't done before and Jon cut the song after seeing the result. The only thing about it being a public statement is that we know he did, in fact, say it. Otherwise, people would probably have assumed that Richie was just blowing smoke when he did the Brazilian interview to support his album and said that he would still be promoting AOTL on the BWC tour. I wasn't saying that Jon promised the fans or the public; but I think it's something that Richie might have seen as a promise Jon made to him that he didn't follow through on.

my theory about people being in love with you WM was also an allusion to all the theories here and of course I agree with you that my theory is 100% right... Now how can I go to Bon Jovi concerts with all these people being jealous of me? I guess I’m not going to be front row anymore or I will need to pay for extra security... it’s okay -_-


all the time

Just to stay on topic, bastards!

https://www.instagram.com/p/BppuviMnfRM/

Meant to reply earlier. I thought you were just being a smart-aleck in keeping with all the other BS that was flying back and forth. :)

And besides, I may owe you an apology, anyway. Even if it was unintentional, you may have been wrong only once. Still seeking confirmation, but it could be that you actually DIDN'T hear it first from Jon, after all - if we want to get technical. (And I'm sure there are those among us who do.) :p

'S alright!

What does he mean, by himself? Richie has never written a hit song by himself. How many songs has he actually written by himself?

He's perfecting the tranny look.

I'm sure he's written a few...just because Jon refuses to record anything that he doesn't get a song writing credit on. There's been some discussion about this here in the past, I'm sure Jon has just changed a line here and there just to get a song writing credit at times. So we never really know how much of each song was written by Jon/Richie/Desmond/Billy/whoever...

...SHANKS!!! You guys keep forgetting SNOOKY! :p :D

I'd be up for Snooky producing the next album! :mrgreen:

There aren't many because he prefers collaborating with other writers. (Or so he says. I'm sure the real reason is that he probably just spends waaay too much time trying to get that "tranny look" down pat.):roll:

But in case you're interested, here are the ones that I've seen:

Church of Desire - SITT
River of Love - SITT
Mr. Bluesman - SITT
A Good Life - Shark Frenzy
I Need Your Love - Shark Frenzy

Instrumental: Ava's Eyes

(Interesting factoid I discovered while double-checking these. He wrote another instrumental, called ""Mr. Sambo"; not by himself, but with TICO!!)
https://youtu.be/DH4wWNEGlc4

BTW, rumor also has it that Richie actually brought some songs that he may have written by himself, along with some unfinished songs he was working on, by himself, into writing sessions with Jon. If that's true, there may have been a hit or two among them; and that could be what he's referring to. :p

Richie has proved to me enough over the years that he is an excellent songwriter. I don't care if he has written many by himself, although equally I am not interested in trying to rewrite history and facts to push a narrative. Every song with a credit including Jon and Richie had contributions from both of them. How much each is unknown and hardly matters.

I find it insulting that some are trying to suggest Jon just stuck his name on something Richie brought in because he can. There is loads wrong with that opinion just from a logical standpoint and yes, it is just as insulting when Jon gives his quarterback spiel. Aside from that, it is also complete speculation with not even a cursory glance at evidence.

From some sides, Richie is being painted almost like someone who has been in an abusive realationship. If he brought his own songs to the party and let Jon get a credit for virtually nothing, that says more to me about Richie than it does about Jon. As in, what an absolute coward he must be.

I am not buying it for a second. I think his contribution has been huge and am unsure why some people want to make it more, making it seem like he was the brains, heart and creative force behind Bon Jovi.

Why is it a problem if Richie does not have a huge catalog of 100% self-penned songs? It does not say anything to me about his ability or potential.

lol, maybe the confusion is because Richie says “I” and JBJ says “We” when they talk about sonwriting
JBJ has said Wanted (my favorite song) was 50% him and 50% Richie
but of course people going to say that Johnny is a liar, etc. etc. etc.

Excellent post.

As for the highlighted part, I think the reason is simple. Clearly, the quality of Bon Jovi studio output over the decades has declined. Jon, being Mr. CEO gets the public credit/blame for this. And since Richie was the supposedly the most underrated guitarist in the world who's 'been a lead singer in every band before he got into Bon Jovi' and who's constantly held back by 'the machine', it must also be the case that this decline is because his songwriting input is diminishing. The fact that Richie's non-Bon Jovi output 2010s has been just as poppy, bland and just overall mediocre (if not more) is, however, conveniently ignored.

My opinion on the mater - Jon and Richie were great. But songwriters usually decline with age and they were no exception.It's only more exagerrated, because this also came together with their simultaneous decline as on-stage performers.

Well, when you're a poet at heart, age doesn't matter. Being a songwriter is like being a poet, you have no expiry date. The only problem is your ego.

The only BJ song I remember with Tico is Secret Dreams


old songwriters are lazy and boring? A little but not all the time...


Only to think that those ego's gave us so many great songs... 'cause a lot of Bon Jovi songs are all about ego lol

Richie concert? https://www.instagram.com/p/BppRGCfB78S/

Oh I almost forgot it... I want this a sticky thread, please, thank you! -_-

Only in My Dreams ;)

songwriter...
but I don't think only in your dreams this will be a sticky thread lol

You've got to realise that not all songs will start with Jon and Richie sitting down and writing together from the get go. Obviously a lot of them will be started alone and then brought in where the other would add their input. Sometimes this might be a lot, sometimes a little. With the amount of songs they have written together there is bound to be a mix of all of that, including some that Jon just changed a line here and Richie changed a chrord there.

For everyone that suggests that there are songs that Jon has a credit for without changing much, there is someone that suggets that Richie has never written a hit on his own, so therefore it says a lot about his songwritting, which is utter rubbish.

For me, what does say a lot is that when Desmond Child, one of the greatest song writers of that era, chose to work with Richie on a couple of tracks when he did his solo album (Discipline) in the early 90s. The only other co-writes on that album were with Diane Warren and Burt Bacharach....Desmond isn't juts going to choose to work with an average song writter, when we could literally have picked anyone to help him out with the rockier tracks...

It should be fairly safe to assume everyone realises not all songs start with Jon and Richie sitting down together. Jon himself has said Richie has brought songs, but that's not the point. Overplaying Richie's role is the point, more specifically to a higher level than all facts suggest. It's nothing more than "he did because I say so."

Sure, it may have sometimes been a little and sometimes been a lot in the writing process. However, suggesting the little is a word/line or a chord just does not make sense to me. That is especially amusing because there is no way Jon is giving Richie a songwriting credit for changing a chord.

I agree, I think Richie has played his part in enough monster hits for his capabilities not to be questioned just because he has never solo wrote a bona fide hit. Not least because it is not him or even the quality of the song that decides if it becomes a hit or not. I mean, if he had written Mr. Blobby on his own, would that mean he is an ace songwriter?

But the same can be said about downplaying his role, which a lot of people do....

Sometimes changing one chord can change a song dramatically. I'm not talking about a single note. Changing the first Chord of a chorus from C to Em would change the dynamics of the song drastically. Of course there would be a song writing credit there....

The same way that changing a line can change the whole meaning of a verse....

Song writing credits can also be split into percentages, although many band's don't bother with this as it's hard to determine and can cause friction....I don't think that that information is often made public though...

I've made that argument a few times. I've also argued that Richie may be the primary songwriter on some of their songs while Jon is the primary on others, and some were probably closer to 50/50. It wouldn't surprise me if there are songs written by one of them where minor changes resulted in both having credits. IIRC, ITA was supposedly written by Jon and David; but at an opportune moment Richie tossed out the title of a song he was working on, so he has a writing credit for it. It's not hard for me to believe that the same thing could have happened in reverse.

I haven't seen many people who think Richie is "the brains, heart and creative force behind Bon Jovi" or who try to paint him as such. What I have seen is people reacting to those who believe Jon IS Bon Jovi and that he would have enjoyed the same level of success by himself (or with any 4 guys he picked up off the street), and imply that if it weren't for Jon, Richie would be flipping burgers at McDonald's. Although Richie is usually their bone of contention, that insults not only him, but extends to Tico, Dave, Alec, and Hugh, imo, because it took all of them to make the band what it is. But when someone starts crediting Richie for anything, it's automatically assumed that he or she is trying to steal credit from Jon, or say that Jon's contributions meant nothing, or exaggerate Richie's importance to the band. So I guess it all depends on your POV.

If you're referring to my reply to Butters, I was responding to his WTF reaction, as if Richie is delusional to talk about hit songs "that you write by yourself..." My point was that perhaps some of their hits did start life as a song Richie wrote by himself and brought into sessions with Jon - not to say Jon didn't have anything to do with them or just stuck his name on them. But just because they were later tweaked, or totally reworked, by him and Jon (and Desmond or whomever) that wouldn't negate the feeling of pride and ownership that Richie might feel for them. It's just another version of the on-going "I wrote/I co-wrote" debate.

LOVE Only Lonely, Love lies, Borderline, Breakout (written by John Bongiovi and David Bryan only)
just sayin’

Jackie is so defensive when it comes to Richie.

Have Jackie and Rosa ever battled it out? That would be something to see lol.

if that's the case I'm going to support JackieBlue -_-

Well, y'know, it's like the man said: "You gotta stand up for what you believe."

I believe that there are at least 3 sides to every story: yours, mine, and the fly on the wall's; and we haven't heard from the fly yet. Not that it matters a whole helluva lot, because I also believe that life's too short to hold grudges, even if it turns out that I don't like what the fly has to say. ;)

Thanks, Ma'am! But I don't think it will come to that. It doesn't seem to me that Rosa's always looking for flaws in someone, just because he disappointed her 5-1/2 years ago; and I like Jon, even if I don't think sun rises and sets in his shoes. So until Rosa tells me that I'm not a fan unless I agree with everything Jon does, or that I have no business being here, there's really nothing for us to battle out.:)