But the story has been told Jackie. You're just in denial... You were so adamant about no one in the band using the word 'Drug or Alcohol' and were in complete denial because Jon used the word 'Habits' instead. It took someone to proved it to you by using another band members direct quote.

When you start stretching like this, you lose total and complete credibility amongst everyone here...



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RDK, I lost credibility with some people the very first time I posted, and for the same reason: because I believed Richie wouldn't jump ship without good reason and that the reason might involve Jon and the band. For some people, that alone made me a blind Richie-follower and, by default, a Jon-hater. Neither is true, but so much for damaged credibility. If that were a major concern, I woulda stopped posting a long time ago.

If you'd rather think I'm in denial instead of accepting that I just don't see things the way you do, go for it; but the fact remains that I fully realize Richie's "habits" could be the reason he didn't show up. I don't think I've ever denied that as a possible explanation. But I also think it's an awfully convenient explanation, so I still wonder if there's more to it than just that. David did say "drug addiction" and that's a new twist, so it's now in the hopper with all the other puzzle pieces. But it didn't magically answer all my questions.

You've made it clear that you believe Jon has told us everything we need to know, so you're convinced. I still have questions, so I'm not. Since there's no rule that says we have to agree, I suggest we just leave it at that.

Yeah, hope we'll STICK to one thread if we talk about one particular topic bc the mods here are right - too many twin threads make my head spin, I keep forgetting where and to whom I actually spoke to. No music from Richie now so maybe the general discussion can be held here?

---

I finally listened to that interview with Dave and man, you can't be more blunt here. Can't deny Richie's way of numbing himself played a role in his leaving but you can't deny the growing tension between Jon and Richie months prior, either. So I agree with Jackie here - this would be too convenient for a full answer.
Whatever 'amalgamation of things' caused the split, it's obvious Richie wanted back but couldn't. As I was talking to a friend today, maybe something broke in Jon and he decided enough was enough and made a painful decision to keep going without him... YET, that would contradict his own words from the interview I can't find the damn link to, where he confessed he wanted to give up but Shanks persuaded him to continue, hence THINFS and a new sense of identity... See? We're never gonna find the whole truth, maybe bc it's still a very private matter and there's no way the Jovi mafia will spill all the beans.

There is no denying that Richie and Jon probably have had many creative differences overlapping multiple years but it's not enough for Richie to walk out in my opinion. What proves it to me is the solo material he released after TC. Aftermath was nothing more than rehashed post 2000 sounds and material. and yes, RSO was a disaster but they each had 3 or 4 songs each to showcase themselves and although the Richie stuff was decent, it wasn't anything different.

Richie's been messed up for a long time. He partied his way though the 80's and 90's (probably all through his marriage with Heather) with some lighter drugs like cocaine. Then he got all messed up on painkillers and who knows what else. He's been a disaster ever since.

- Jon had to promote half of Lost Highway without Richie because he was in rehab. Remember when he was completely wasted during the unplugged show? He missed American Idol and some of the other promo performances.

- Then Phil had to jump in during the TC/GH tour in 2011.

- What makes 2013 any different? We all saw the disaster he was after he left. Mad handling Orianthi like she was a rag doll, slurring his words in every interview, etc. Even up to the RnR HOF he seemed wasted. I still can't figure out his speech. He was out there.

I'm sure there was so much more in between that never went public. I think the RnR HOF was the icing on the cake for Jon. I think Jon knows its over and wants the fans to know the real truth so they don't blame him for the way the band is now.

The End!!!!

It sounds so... finite. *sigh* Guess this is it! :(

I had not realized this! That could well be some animosity in this. But just a few days prior to the Calgary show he tw a pic from the plane on the way back to LA from Hi and sounded excited to get back to the road.

Rehashing this, there are so many pieces to the puzzle. Don't forget the Sean Borg, Nikki Lund and even her mom input. I was Not on the list but she followed a lot of his fans and some I know received the DM's that IMO started the "he wants to go back but Jon won't let him" campaign. Richie did say maybe Hyde park and then Sept. that were not just quotes but videos out there. Then that was countered by the Randi Reed post that was more along the lines of his addictions/demons and the band loved and was worried.
Then when he moved on to the next (part of his problems too, thinking with the wrong body part, you know it's true) that crew was being buried in the desert and calling him an abusive drunk or worse. What a mess - but some of it he creates. Then his behaviour did him no favours. Several times Jon comes off as hurt (he's not that good an actor) and others angry. Just like a family fight. But, The BonJovi days for him are over no matter how much we hash it or want to blame someone. RDK is right, "The End". I hate it - maybe someday for a money grab, but that's what it would feel like at this point. I'd just like to feel like they were brothers again. It was part of the magic and they both need the other rather they will ever admit it or not.

I haven't figured out how to double quote - saw JackieBlue mentioned one of my favorites: From Guitars that Rule the World - Mr Sambo - it's my ring tone. My phone gets some looks. Recorded in one take. Written by Richie and Tico, with Richie on guitar, Tico on drums, Hugh on Bass. Recorded by Obie and Nick Dides at the Warehouse in PA. Mixed by Obie and Produced by Tico! It always makes me smile and need that!

https://twitter.com/deandelray/statu...75689617940481
or
https://soundcloud.com/deandelray/44...bryan-keyboard

David's hooks: Runaway, Wanted, Bad Medicine and Wild In The Streets
David:
"Everybody came with their parts"
"Richie went to rehab 3 times and he decided not to do it anymore, it's a job not a sentence and it's sucks 'cause it's a brother... but he didn't want to do it"
"We made a couple of rehearsals before, in LA when we were at there, just to make it easy for Richie coming here for last rehearsal, we put all the cards on the table"
David co-wrote Keep The Faith with J, R and D
the last time David saw Alec before HoF was in 1995...

David used that pesky word "addiction" again. But some still choose to not believe it. So much denial.

"You think he'll ever be back?"

"Strange thing about addiction is it doesn't cure itself. It's that tough love thing."

Honestly, I don't think anyone has ever said that Richie never had an addiction problem. Some of us just think that there is more to his departure than JUST that...

To be honest, the ones that are in denial are the ones that think we know all the details of this...

I've said it before, BJ has always been a secret society that always keep their personal affairs close to their chest. All of a sudden people think that they are telling us the full story? Talk about naive...

They tell us what they want us to know and that's it....

This draws into question what it means to "see" or "Talk to" someone. David would have seen Alec in 2001 at Giants Stadium so either he doesn't count that or he forgot. This seems a bit similar to no one talking to Richie even if technically it's not true.

I agree in principal, but there is one problem I have with the logic when I think about it. If there is more to know (again, there must be, even at a minimal level), why isn't Richie saying so?

Sure, he is locked into some legal agreement where he can't throw Jon under the bus. I get that, but does that legal agreement extend to Jon having carte blanche to throw Richie under the bus? I think not. If addiction was not the reason (let's say large percentile reason), then why is Richie simply not saying "hey, me falling to my addictions was not the reason I left, I can't delve into the reasons why, but it was not that?

I don't buy because he is the bigger/better man. You say they let us know what they want us to know. Ok, but why wouldn't Richie want us to know he was not off his tits and that caused his departure? Surely, if addiction was not the reason and Jon has (implicitly) said it was and David has (explicitly) said it was, that would be libelous if untrue.

So, while it seems obvious there are things at play we don't know about, it also seems obvious to me that addiction was the main reason Richie left. Remember, we are talking about that point in time. Perhaps Richie was moving towards the door anyway and was disenchanted in general. However, that precise moment he left seems to have been caused by addiction, unless Jon is lying and Richie is letting him.

I have no doubt that they have Richie slapped down in a legal contract that doesn't let him say a thing about it. BJ will have the worlds best entertainment lawyers at their beck and call. Richie isn't allowed to say a thing, while Bj can say can throw Richie under the bus whenever they want. Of course, It's all speculation, but that's how big businesses and the legal system work...

We know a month later he said he wanted and expected to rejoin the tour.

We now know the band gave him tough love by not letting him because he wouldn't get himself clean.

That tough love line is such bullshit. If my "brother" was having problems with addiction I wouldn't kick him out and not bother to check up on him for 5 years. Don't make me laugh...no love there...

I found it weird as well, maybe it's my bad English? 'cause I didn't understand that part very well: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RJ5...outu.be&t=3988

Exactly... And I think it's much worse, placing more blame on Richie... I think Jon and the guys did a lot to help Richie and had a lot patients.

Prior to his departure in 2013, he left the band twice mid album / mid tour / mid promo. Bobby filled in during the LH promo and Phil during TC/GH Tour... I really think Richie thought he was irreplaceable and thought he could just walk in and out again...

However with all that said, Richie's 3 departures all happened during Albums/Tours so they were public... I'm sure even more went down that never hit the press during the off seasons...

This is pure speculation but I honestly think that Richie's limitations on WAN were because he just wasn't capable... He wasn't creative, we wasn't consistent, and just created a very difficult atmosphere for everyone...

I'm not buying the poor Richie had to stop promoting his album and needed more time off... Dave was equally busy with his plays (and had more success) and didn't seem to be complaining at all. As a matter of fact, Dave and Tico (and Huge) seem very relaxed...

Look, I'm not saying Jon is perfect, I'm not saying WAN wasn't rushed (regardless of the reason - Record Co Pressure or Assets for an NFL Team) but if Richie's wasn't ready, he should have ironed all that out prior or just finished the remaining 8 months (with a lot of time off in between) and then went on hiatus.

These guys signed up to be in a successful rock band and with that, comes discipline. His habits got in the way of that...

Sure we all speculated for years but now 5 years later, the guys are becoming more and more vocal just proving our evidence to be correct...

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But we know for a fact that Tico said "NO" to Jon when he called to say to come and start work on the album. He wanted a break. So Jon started without him. It's obvious that they were all somewhat fried at this time, but Jon's the boss so all that mattered was was he wanted to do....I honestly think that if WAN never existed things would be very different now...

I think this may have lost me because it has little basis in legal fact (at least in the United States). Big business will absolutely shut you down from discussing fine details of operations, but Richie would be able to say simply "I wasn't high". Again, if it is untrue Jon and David are being slanderous and Richie does have the legal right to defend himself without needing to touch on the details.

Of course, it also ignores the fact Richie can also have the world's best entertainment lawyers at his beck and call.

Do you really believe Richie could not say his additction was not the reason and not break the legal framework? I happen to know he could (at least in US law) if dealing with slander.

Just to expand this a little. I think any slander accusation would be easily defendable, even if Richie's addictions did not cause his departure. That said, we are also working on the assumption that Richie once signed an agreement that stipulated he could not discuss anything about the band if he left the organization. Additionally, such a contract would also state that the organization could simultaneously say what they want about him without reproach. If this is the contract Richie signed, he needs to learn to read or get a better agent.

Again, such a contract would not prevent him simply correcting a wrong.

But we've already established that the addictions WAS a part of why he left the band or wasn't allowed back or whatever, I don't think anyone is contesting that. So he can't say that what they guys are saying isn't true because it (partly) is. There are just (in my opinion) other details that led to that, which have not been divulged in public. All he has implied is that there's more to the story...which is the only way he can really defend himself without going in to details...

I've heard rumours about other stuff from people that I work with, but I'm not about to get into that. They are literally just rumours, and I'm not going to be one of those guys that says he heard from a friend that and acquaintance went to lunch with richie's guitar tech and he said, etc etc etc..

It's highly unlikely that Richie would have the same caliber of lawyers on his own that the Bon Jovi organisation would, nor would he or his lawyers have the same influence, power, etc...he wouldn't have been in any position to negotiate the contract on his terms.

WAN is a weird one. Any disenchantment from Richie over that album must come from the fact the album got in the way of his solo album, but there is no sense in that. I think he himself said WAN was fully recorded before Aftermath was finished. He must have known what committment came after recording.

Jon must have told him there would be enough time to complete his solo run. The problem I have always had with this is that Richie's solo album run its course. Release, tour, TV spots, they were all done by time WAN was released. That album had no more traction even if Richie wanted more time.

Richie also co-wrote five of the songs on WAN. He contributed to the mess that album was and is. Who knows, perhaps Because We Can, Pictures of You, What's Left Of Me, Thick As Thieves, and Army of One are Richie songs that Jon just changed a word on to get a credit.

No, I think it comes from the fact it's a horrible album...

Indeed it is, awful. It is sometimes pushed as part of the reason Richie left, but he co-wrote five songs so I doubt it. Maybe the shame pushed him to leave.

Okay...So... Whats the point? TC came out in 2009 and they had a few tracks on the GH's album in 2010... They were due for new music in 2013 especially if you look back to everything they've released prior. This was probably their longest span between new music they've had to date since Crush. The GHs tour ended in July of 2011 and WAN came out in early 2013. How much time off did Richie want? Jon might have pulled the plug a few months earlier than expected but that's one of the reasons why he did a lot of the basic stuff on his own with Shanks... Don't forget that KTF followed that same path when Richie was doing Stranger so this isn't uncommon grounds for Jon to start a process by himself. And you can probably say the same for Crush.

During that period off between 2011 and 2013, Jon made references towards his own solo album in addition to writing for some soundtracks. The Sand Up Guys thing really didn't take off and I think he was denied by the record company and was forced to do a band album per his contract. He had to put out two band albums by 2015.

We need to find that Tico interview but it's my recollection that Jon didn't ask Tico to start early work for WAN. He asked him for a favor to help lay down some drum demo tracks for his solo stuff... I also believe it was a week or so after the tour ended... It had nothing to do with Richie or WAN... Now one might have morphed into the other but we really need to find and dissect that Tico interview. We need to understand the content, timelines, and what Jon really needed Tico for...

Finally, you can't say "if WAN never existed things would be very different now". I can say if Aftermath never happened, things would be very different now. Everything happens for a reason and they eventually needed to fulfill their record contract obligations.

People over exaggerate and make it seem like Jon called Richie in the middle of his tour and made him drop everything to the band tour. At the end of the day, solo projects are great for fans and artistic creativity but the money and the business is with the band and that's the priority.

WAN was done and out. The tour was 3 months in. Richie could have easily finished those remaining nine months, especially when you look at all the time off they had been shows and each leg... The other guys seemed to have been fine..

I'll end on this note: Notice in Dave's interview he said Richie was in rehab THREE times. We know about the times during LH and GHs but when was the third? Hummmm?

All I was saying was that Tico didn't want to go back to work yet either, it wasn't just Richie. From my memory this was to start demos for WAN, but I might be wrong...

In my opinion the album was unnecessary, and the quality of the output clearly supports that...

Actually if you look at the early WAN shows with Richie, Jon's the one that looks tired...so, as I keep saying, it's all just speculation anyways...

Ho Hum

Did you read what I wrote about that whole Tico thing?

It's my recollection that Jon didn't ask Tico to start early work for WAN. He asked him for a favor to help lay down some drum demo tracks for his solo stuff... I also believe it was a week or so after the tour ended... It had nothing to do with Richie or WAN...

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Yes, and I replied to that....did you read my reply!?

"From my memory this was to start demos for WAN, but I might be wrong..."

You have to find the interview...

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I don't have to do anything. I'm just telling you how I remember it, right or wrong.

I don't have the time to go searching the internet for an interview...

You find it, as you seem to be the one so hung up about it.

I'm not hug up on it... you're the one who brought it up, I just responded.

And how can you say you have no time when you're on here 24/7?

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Calm down Mr Sensitive and Mr New Jersey!

JBJ: "Whe we completed The Circle as a tour and an album, in August 2011
I told the guys we wouldn't work the rest of the year but I lied. By September I started to write again, I started the writing process in 2011 in September, by June in '12 It was completed. The whole record written, recorded and finished. So it's really a snapshot of that period in time and when you have a snapshot in a period of time, it's also been important to release it timely manner or the subject matter gets old, and so history gives you an opportunity to talk about it and if you want to be relevant to that moment we needed to be back to work. We write in batches of dozens, you know 12, 36 and we usually write 36, 48. And I called Tico in the first dozen, maybe October November
I said, No?. You tell me No?, Why?! Holy Shit! And I don't have another drummer. I said: You're right, I said we're not going to work so you're right! I lied, yeah; I lied. And I got another drummer."

I'm on here no more or less than the rest of you losers! ;)

Thank you! :D

So this is about WAN right? No mention of a solo record or anything...

I'm talking all about WAN, loser!

Awesomes! :mrgreen:

Stop being pissy because Dave's interview is proving all you're theory's wrong...

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It was a joke, hence the wink ;)

I'm not even remotely pissy, I'm actually in a great mood! :mrgreen:

Dave's interview is not proving anything wrong. I never denied his addictions, I always that there was more to the story. Nothing has disproved that yet....

If anyone's pissy it's you because you were wrong about WAN...

How am I wrong about WAN

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Do you even read anyone's posts but your own? :p

The interview above clearly states that it was the beginning of the process for WAN when Jon asked Tico to come back to work and he said "no". Not some solo album or something like you suggested...

It's a long way off, but Jon Bon Jovi is already hatching plans for August, after he and his band wrap up touring in support of their 2009 album, "The Circle," and a "Greatest Hits"

"I'm going to sit on a beach for August, which is usually what I do, and come September figure out what's next," Bon Jovi tells Billboard.com. Some possibilities? "A smaller-sounding solo record and/or focus more on the philanthropy and sports ownerships," he says. "I don't see any acting in the immediate future. It'll be out of the political cycles, and there's nothing else I wish I could do. I'm not a coulda, shoulda, woulda kind of guy. If I wanted to do it, I tried it, so it's not like I have any hidden desire to become a chef or anything."


Like I said, one might have morphed into the other but there were songs like "The Fighter" and the two Stand Up Guy tracks that fit the above description perfectly.... That was the first batch of songs Tico was asked to play on.

But this has nothing to do with calling Tico in. The above interview posted by Yovana is clearly talking about a band record (states he called Tico Oct/Nov 2011). In fact it was about a year before he called Tico that your quote comes from as it's before the release of GH...(Nov 2010)