That's totally the wrong attitude....Sure when you put it like that it seems impossible and although I'm not doubting that it's a stretch, this band has given us more b-sides than album tracks... Between random B-sides, The Box Set, Sons Of Beaches, and others; showing fan interest in older material might get us something.... We were supposed to get other special edition albums but due to a lack of sales (fan interests) that was stopped so maybe just maybe fans expressing interest by throwing out older titles could grant us a few tunes... All your going to read is, "I love you Jon and when are you coming to my country?" A post like, "Jon, can you post the song Chasing Amy?' might stand out.

I'm not saying let's not do it but you answered your own question. They've repeatedly tossed us bones and it's been so lack luster that projects were literally cancelled. It took Jon until 2017 to get Twitter and Instagram, it'll take his death to get old songs released. The majority of the b-sides were released when singles meant something and sold pretty well.

I'm all for trying but I think we'd need to think bigger.

Nope, nothing officially leaked minus that torrent from The Circle which no one has seen.

I know this is a long shot, but if anyone can get in contact with that band "Poets", maybe they could send us the demo for "One to Say Goodbye" that Jon probably sent them? It was probably Juliet Simms' people who leaked "Burn With Me", so you never know.

I posted some revisions based on recent discussions...

These Days Studio Takes - Covers

and Hurricane Butterfly

I'm presuming we never got a full version of Hurricane Butterfly?

One To Say Goodbye was written by Jon, Richie and Richie Supa. Was this the only time Richie Supa wrote with them for the band? Or might that have been a song they had picked up and re-worked from the Undiscovered Soul era?

I think he had a co-write on a box set song too. Too Much Of A Good Thing maybe?

Yeah, that's the one.

I don't want to spark yet another debate about whether or not Jon is sometimes credited for songs he didn't write; but I seriously doubt that Jon was even 'in the room' when these 2 were written. My guess is it's another case of Jon's condition that he gets co-writer credit for any song he records (or plans to).

Richie has a long-standing AA relationship with Supa and Rockers in Recovery that, as far as I can tell, hasn't had anything to do with Jon or Bon Jovi. The bios I've seen for Supa only mention Aerosmith and Richie Sambora. If there were a Jon or Bon Jovi connection, one would think that would be name-dropped as well.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that there's been the occasional song here and there where Jon just put his name on it or changed about one line somewhere to justify doing so. Going by the amount of songs they've recorded throughout their career, it'd be pretty naive to think that this hasn't happened at some point.

I know when they got together for Crush/Sex Sells there were three batches of songs. The ones Jon wrote and stockpiled, the ones Richie wrote and stockpiled and the ones they wrote together (Garageland and Next 100 years were from the first batch they wrote together). I wonder if Too Much Of A Good Thing came from the Richie batch and they they tweaked it together, added/took out parts.

Looking at the lyrics and melody, nothing about it to me screams either Jon or Richie and I dont know enough about Richie Supa to know if it's closer to his style. It's the same way I'd bet a million dollars the second verse of Two Story Town was written by Mark Hudson.

Neurotica...

I missed that one. It could have come out of the US sessions as well. Thanks, Yovana!


A general question for the room:

I know we've talked about One to Say Goodbye before, but where did we get that it was written by JBJ, Sambora and Supa. I just checked ASCAP and couldn't find it listed for Supa or Sambora. I looked at every possible mutation of the title that I could think of and nada. Is it registered with one of the other PROs?

Wiki has Neurotica listed as just Jon and Richie. But it also has Thank you for loving me's cowriters completely wrong so I don't know.

I don't recall ever hearing Supa was a co-writer on OTSG. If Supa co-wrote both Neurotica and Too Much Of A Good thing I don't know why it's far fetched to think the three of them wrote them together the same way Jon brought Richie into writing with Billy, Richie bringing in Supa isn't crazy. IF he indeed co-wrote one to say goodbye they could have all been written in the same session.

Supa's press releases wouldn't have much reason to mention working with the band if the only thing that came of those songs are buried on a box set and the bonus track of an album. His work with Aerosmith and Sambora actually made the albums.

EDIT: Apparently he co-wrote Ain't No Cure For Love as well.

The singer of Poets, Jimmy, had told me that ;)

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Good enough for me. :)

I didn't doubt the truth of it. I was just surprised that I couldn't find it on ASCAP.

Good point. It looks like he has an association with some other heavy hitters that they aren't listed either.

ASCAP lists JBJ/Sambora/Supa for Neurotica, Ain't No Cure, and Too Much of a Good Thing.

I wouldn't say far-fetched, necessarily, but if there were three batches like you said earlier, it just makes more sense to me that the Supa songs came from Richie's stockpile.

Assuming you mean Billy Falcon, and that he's just an example, I see a couple of differences. First, Falcon is all over their catalog, kinda like Desmond used to be; while Supa's songs all seem to be related to Crush (which just happens to follow on the heels of Undiscovered Soul). Second, I think Richie bringing writers into sessions 'the same way Jon did' assumes a certain equity in their partnership that I once believed existed, but that I doubt more and more as time goes on (and Jon keeps talking.) :) I believe it may have been more balanced at one time, but I'm beginning to think that, starting maybe as far back as KTF, there's been a world of shit that Jon does, that doesn't necessarily work both ways. JMO.

Richie Supa being on there actually makes me think that the song might've been from the Crush sessions. All the other tunes where we know he was involved in are from the era between 1998 and 2000.
Sure, Poets released the song in 2002 or 2003 but who says that Bon Jovi didn't just give them one they had shelved from their previous album?

I do hear what you're saying but there's a lot of passive aggressive jabs that makes it sound like you're turning how you view their relationship into something more complicated. I truly believed TMOAGT came from sessions with Richie until more and more songs popped up co-written by Supa in the same era. It's just more likely the three of them did it than all of them came from sessions with Richie because Jon rips people off.

VERY good point, yeah.

You seem clued in to reality in general, so how could you have ever assumed there was equity in the partnership? I'll give you before KTF, although I don't think they were equals ever. I mean, it's only now (or recently) that you're doubting this?

I am not saying anything about the writing process. I am sure I have seen an image or video where Supa was with all the band in the studio. I really never follow all the ins and outs of their lives, but there's something in my memory.

TBH, I think you're convinced that I don't like Jon, no matter how many times I say otherwise, and because of that you read too much into my comments, looking for criticism of Jon that just isn’t there. There was no passive-aggression; I said exactly what I meant. I’ve never thought that the relationship between Jon and Richie, or my perception of it, was anything but complicated. It's just that my perceptions about what their relationship was really like behind the scenes has been slowly changing. That’s based on comments from a lot of people, including both Jon and Richie; but it’s primarily been some of the things Jon has said and done over the last several years that opened my eyes and caused me to rethink some of my previous assumptions. Along with the changes in my own perceptions, it dawned on me that, over thirty years, the relationship itself has likely changed significantly, perhaps many times, to get from what it seemed to be in the beginning to what it seems to be now; and maybe I'm just now catching up with that. But as semigoodlooking says, it’s never been about them being equals because Jon’s always been the boss. As such, Jon makes the rules; and I’m sure that there are things he does that aren’t options for the other band members, including Richie. So, I don’t think we can assume, just because Jon brings in outside writers, that Richie could do that, too. That’s wasn’t a jab at Jon. All the band members have said, at one time or another, that it’s not a democracy, it’s a benevolent dictatorship.

I also don't think I've implied that Jon rips people off. I think there have been instances where Jon may have agreed to record a song in exchange for song-writing credits; but that isn't a rip-off. As I understand it, that's a fairly common practice in the industry; and assuming there is fair compensation, it would benefit both Jon and the "ghost writer" or "co"-writer. Jon gets to record a song he likes, receives songwriter royalties, and can continue saying that his name is on every song in his catalog. And whether he is credited or not, the writer probably gets more for his song, if Bon Jovi records it, than he would ever get if he held out for full credit and Jon refused to record it. 20% of something is better than 100% of nothing.

In this particular case, Supa got credit for the co-write, whether he sat in the room with Jon and Richie to write the songs or not. You could be right that the three of them were together when those songs were written. But, imo, it’s no less credible that Supa and Richie could have written the songs while they were working on US; and since they weren’t used on the album, some of them may have been among the songs that Richie brought to the sessions with Jon. Given that you were already thinking that way about TMOAGT, I don’t understand why you think it’s any less likely, just because there were 3 songs (or 4 with OTSG) instead of just the one.

Semigoodlooking seems to remember seeing Supa in the studio with them. If he’s right, that might change my way of thinking. Barring that, I haven’t seen anything that connects Supa with Bon Jovi other than Richie. But there are probably a gabillion things in this world that I haven’t seen. It doesn’t mean they don’t exist, it just means that I’m unaware of them.

I'd like to chip in that It Only Takes One To Say Goodbye sounds quite a bit like One Night Of Peace (whose co-writer had his credit removed from the RSO version - talking about screwing people over...). Richie may have re-visited the basic musical idea, whether that was deliberately or not.

Also, IOTOTSG is a great song; I too wish the BJ demo was available.

I think it's less likely because one song, sure. A song Richie did with Supa got unused so it was re-visited. There's just no reason to think that Neurotica, Ain't No Cure For Love, One to Say Goodbye AND Too Much Of A Good Thing all came from those some US sessions. It's not even completely that Richie can't bring in other writers, the amount of songs they write there's just no need to revisit past work. That's something they've even said themselves. Why does there have to be a connection between Supa and the band for it to be credible that he wrote the songs with them in 2000? Supa is a pretty prolific song writer, they clearly love the work Desmond did with Aerosmith so it stands to reason wanting to write with him is a no-brainer.

I'm even seeing press releases including Bon Jovi in the works he's done. There's so much stacked in favor of Jon simply bringing in Supa it's tough to even consider those songs were all 1998 based and revisited in early 2000.

There doesn't. Have you been taking reading lessons from RDK? :p :)

I don't know how to say any more clearly that either scenario could be what happened; and it's obvious that we aren't going to agree on which one is more likely. So let's just leave it at that, shall we?

Yeah, I did another search last night, using 'RIchie Supa Bon Jovi', instead of 'Richie Supa' and I saw BJ listed with artists who have recorded his songs. I was going to edit my post this morning to correct that but you beat me to it.

I'm done debating but, just out of curiosity, would you please explain this to me... I don't see what loving the work Desmond did with Aerosmith has to do the price of eggs in China. The only connection I can see is that Supa and Desmond both worked with Aerosmith.

Especially because it was live-in-the-studio demo done by Jon and Richie...

Gee... I LOVE IOTOTSG ♥_♥!!!

JackieBlue, since you like to analyze everything, maybe if you analyze THE SONGS you will find if JBJ wrote them or not, 'cause I don't wanna think you care so much for Richie just because you think he is hot or... whatever (I know you were kidding but by personal experience I think there is truth in every joke -_-)

More so what I meant was you were saying Richie Supa has no connections with Bon Jovi. My point about Aerosmith was about the band wanting to work with song writers within a certain frame.

Alas it's not worth debating over and being compared to RD has me retreating to lick my wounds. Let's call this one a draw!

1. Don't compare one as such to my greatness... That's more of an insult to me then to him.
2. Your posts have so much conflicting information in them, they are almost impossible to understand at times.

Example:

Jackie: I love Pumpkin, Vanilla, and Hazelnut Spices but I hate flavored coffees... (Conflict Number 1)

RK: I was going to suggest cinnamon spice but being that you hate flavored coffees, never mind then!

Jackie:I NEVER SAID I HATED ALL FLAVORED COFFEE!!! CAN"T YOU READ!!!! (Conflict Number 2 - End Result)

I can't figure that out either. I couldn't put my hands on my CD today, but best I can remember, the whole thing was off. There were no liner notes, or lyrics, and Richie usually goes out of his way with stuff like that - the thank yous, and little things, like on Stranger with the "listening" instructions. Maybe they were just over it by the time it was released.

It still doesn't make sense that he would be deliberately trying to screw Bruce over; because if that had been the case, surely Richie wouldn't have talked so much about co-writing it with Bruce. Besides that, Bruce had already recorded and released his version - several years ago, if I'm not mistaken. So I don't know what's up with that.

I haven't changed my opinion of the songs: I think they're good, with minor exceptions in a few places; but other than that, this whole project has been a nightmare - from concept, then marketing, right through to the finished product. I guess it is what it is; but it makes me sad.

EDIT: I just found my CD and I was wrong. It doesn't have the lyrics, or notes and thank yous; but there are individual writing and personnel credits for each of the songs. I must have been thinking of the track listing on RSO Official where it has RSO for each song.

It Only Takes One To Say Goodbye is a good song but it's too cliche and you can tell that it's not Jon lyrically... Probably the reason why they gave it away.

"sitting here watching you sleeping, I wonder what you're dreaming" sounds like Jon to me. The rest is filled with over used cliches Jon and Richie have used before. Only way out is to make it through, and thats a fact, with every breath I believe in me and you, we have to be lovers and friends. It's inches away from having a "if you were blind you could see". I'd bet my nuts Jon had a hand in writing this one.

C'mon, you guys! You know I love you both and I'd never intentionally insult either of you!! :)

A draw it is, Captain.

And RDK, you may not always read my posts, but danged if you didn't nail the coffee thing. I HAVE never said that I hate all flavored coffees. But the correct answer will ALWAYS be Hazelnut Cream! (Um… except at Dunkin, then it’s Caramel with Cream and Sugar).

Oh, and at McDonalds, it’s hot mocha. :p

I was actually going to mention hot mocha too... Very ironic that you mentioned it... and McDonald's is the beat kept secret with their coffee... Better than Dunkin and Starbucks...

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Great suggestion; but I'm afraid it would be an exercise in futility. Since I don't know nearly enough about music to analyze it, I leave that to the experts here. Lyrics are more my thing; and unfortunately, one of our resident analysts once told me that it's hard to gauge anything from just the lyrics. He said that Jon and Richie have written together for so long, and use the same phrases so much, that what one writes bleeds over into the other, and you can't really pin anything down that way (or words to that effect).

I hope that was a joke, too; because that’s the funniest thing I’ve read all day! :D

But as you say, there’s usually a kernel of truth... So just in case you really are concerned that the only reason I've cared enough to keep up with this cluster**** for 5-1/2 years is because I think Richie's "hot or… whatever", you can put that puppy to rest right now. That’s not even one of the reasons, much less the only one. I do think Richie’s better looking than Jon, so there's your "truth"; but I quit letting a man or his looks drive my decisions a good 30 or 40 years ago. The only reason I responded to sweetmisery the way I did was because people were starting to get nasty with each other; and I hate it when that happens. So I tried to lighten the mood a little.

There now, I hope that helps to ease your worried mind. :)

BTW, here's a bit of advice for future reference: It's a good thing that you were worried that I only care because I think Richie’s hot. If you had dared to suggest that it was because I was hot for Jon… oh my! Girl, there are people here who would crawl all over your ass for entertaining such a "sexist, misogynistic" thought (which apparently is only sexist or misogynistic if it's Jon who is being objectified). So, if I were you, I’d think twice before throwing an accusation like that at one of the Jon girls. Just sayin’…

I'm a rebel
I never take advice (well... there's always an exception for the rule)
Don't worry, No more future reference, 'cause I quit Jovi Talk right now

That's my girl

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Not renewing the debate - it's still a draw. But I had a lightbulb moment that might answer the 'why' in your question. :)

It's true that there doesn't have to be a connection. But despite what Seb mistakenly thinks, I do connect dots. All day, every day. So if there are two options, where one has a connection and the other one doesn't, my first instinct - right or wrong - will be to take Door #1.

And you know what they say about first impressions... (and mule-headed women) :D

Fair enough! I don't think we'll be able to convince the other. Jon choosing to work with Supa to me isn't crazytown given his track record and association with Richie. I hear lyrics and chord changes in some of those songs that just sound like Jon's phrasing and word choices. If you make the point that they've worked together so long and crib off each other then you've already made up your mind and there's not a ton of wiggle room in the discussion, you know?

Are you talking about my response to Yovana and somebody telling me that it's hard to pin down anything from the lyrics? Because you think that's my stance?