Look Sunshine, I've got a pretty good command of the English language, I understand it fine.

You're a lot like a girl I know. You take something and put a ridiculous spin on it. "You keep throwing the term "superiority complex" around." I've used it twice. Bit of an overstatement no?

There are people on this board who look down their noses at others for liking recent Bon Jovi albums. I've seen posts like "How can you rate WAN as 8/10?" The inference behind it is "I'm more clever than you because I know Bon Jovi are shit and you don't".

Those attitudes are symptoms of a superiority complex.

Likewise, there are people who think they are closer to the band and to how music works than everyone else who post patronising rubbish too.

Again with the cow farts...very mature.

Difference to me is three-fold:

1. Bon Jovi write their own songs.
2. Bon Jovi play their own instruments.
3. The lyrical content is very different.

1D are singing about stuff that Bon Jovi were singing about in the 80s. Stuff like Never Say Goodbye and I'll be There for You.

Bon Jovi are singing about social issues. Some of it is cliched rubbish, some of the lyrics are downright terrible but the lyrical content is very different and will appeal to a different audience.

Just on the subject of One Direction:

They're harmless and are pretty enjoyable to listen to should they pop up on the radio. I certainly have no beef with them.

Funnily enough neither do I. They are what they are and are pretty good at it. For as long as there has been music there has been a One Direction and that will always be the case.

The only track on the new record that was written without outside help is The Fighter.

It's debatable who actually played on the record. Alec John Such anyone?

The hell. Who the hell listens to Bon Jovi because of the socially conscious lyrics, hell, the lyrics?

I'm seeing similarities but really it's a stretch. Comparing the new album to 1D? Every single songwriter on the album has worked with the band quite a few times. I looked up the album, it's filled with songwriters who aren't in the band. That's not a fair argument at all.

It's such a moot point. A Shanks guitar track here, a session drummer there, they're still the band playing the record.

Sure, but the whole THEY ARE A REAL BAND! thing was what most people use to differentiate their favorite (heavier) band from Bon Jovi who were just a pretty boy with a couple of corporate tunesmiths ;)

It's a bad idea for a criteria if BJ aren't exactly innocent of this practice themselves. Certainly not completely abstinent.

For example - are Take That more of a proper band than Aerosmith since they wrote all their stuff themselves in the 90s?

I hear what you're saying but it's just....they're a group of guys singing songs someone else writes where as this band is playing songs they co-write with actual instruments. It's not holding up for me.

If they write and play their own stuff they're as equal a band, yah.

Of course it's slightly off. But I'm just trying to put things in perspective a bit here (call it being the devil's advocate or whatever) ;)

Hahaaha it just seems like a silly argument designed to wind people up.

I have to admit I'd have little moral conflict about winding people up who feel the need to play the MY FANDOM IS BETTER THAN YOURS-card. Stop trying to put objectivying golden stamps on your taste.

That's you saying that 50% of Bon Jovi fans are something or the other. They're not. You have no facts, you're just guessing. And you "stand by that", so, you're wrong saying you don't define Bon Jovi fans, you do, as you clearly show above. Can't you read your own posts?

Yes, you did, on both accounts. I quoted your exact words. Again, can't you read your own posts? I don't know what you think you wrote, but the posts are still there. Go and see.

And sometimes you have to exaggerate to get the point across. Especially when the other person doesn't want to see the point.

Again, you're defining a Bon Jovi fan. You don't know Bon Jovi fans, you can't tell me or the others what they think, trying to tell us how to think. Again, you're projecting your own feelings onto a group of imaginary people. They do not exist. You created them and now you're telling others that they should belong to that group. They don't. And I find it very plausible, that most Bon Jovi fans could like 1D's album better than WAN. Why not? But I wouldn't state that to be the case, as I don't know the opinions of Bon Jovi fans. And I couldn't ever, because they're not a homogenic group. You. Can't. Define. A. Bon. Jovi. Fan.

You just don't get it, do you. You have no facts! That's the point! You keep telling people what to do and how to think based on nothing but your opinions. And that is stupid and immature.

Yes, you absolutely did. And I quoted your words back to you. Go and read them again without projecting your own thoughts on them.

You're calling Bon Jovi a "daddy of all boybands"?

And stoip using the word "irony" when you clearly don't know what it means. I'll help you out. According to Wikipedia, irony is:
"an incongruity between the literal and the implied meaning" or "an incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result".

I fail to see how either of those fit in a scenario, where you think you're right and everybody else is wrong? It would be ironic if I said "oh, you're so clever" when I clearly mean you're not. Thinking I'm judging you because you don't like boybands isn't ironic, it's moronic.

A good start is the post, where you define a Bon Jovi fan.

Do you have trouble understanding English? You can't understand what you wrote and you misread my posts.

I didn't make a U-turn, I'm not telling you what to think. I'm telling you to stop telling me and others how "Bon Jovi fans" think. Because you don't know that. You know what YOU think, tell us that. Do not generalize and project YOUR thoughts on all Bon Jovi fans.

And you use those big words, but in all the wrong places. I'm not a hypocrite, i'm not telling you what to think. If you want to be a blinde follower who loves anything the band does, go ahead. I don't mind. As long as you don't come telling others that your way is better than theirs.

Ummm... No, you didn't. You just said you did. Saying "MOST fans" means you think you know how MOST fans think. You said that people, who are not fans like YOU define, should leave the board.

What you did, is you tried to deny what you did. You didn't show me anything. You may think you did, but read it back.

Opinions are not facts. And I'm not the one claiming my opinions are facts. But the fact, that you fail to see, is that YOU DON'T KNOW HOW BON JOVI FANS THINK. So, don't say you do. DOn't say "most fans" do this or that, don't tell anyone if he's a fan or not. You don't know and you also don't get to decide it.

You want facts? Show me the facts behind your statements. Show me the statistics where you show that most "Bon Jovi fans" (I'd love to see you define that) would prefer WAN over 1D's album in a double blind experiment. Then we'll talk facts. Up until then, it's opinions and you forcing yours on people.

Ice

You say:

and then
That's not a symptom of "superiority complex". First of all, it's you projecting your own feelings onto a post that has no such, even implied, feelings. Second, it's someone discussing their opinions. There's no superiority there.

No one is saying "I'm better than you because I don't like WAN". Someone repeating that would suffer from some soret of superiority problem. But the thing is, only one telling other what to think, how to act and what to listen to be a "real" Bon Jovi fan is YOU.

So, please, know what words mean before using them.

No, they aren't.

Patronising, yes. But could it just be that they still know more about it than you? And if you don't know something, wouldn't it be better to listen to those who do?

And again, you need to exaggerate to bring the point across. If I'd compared 1D and a Bon Jovi album, you probably would have started listing things how a Bon Jovi album is better. Which is not the point, as those are your opinions. But someone can like cow farts better than WAN and still be right. It's just opinions and neither you or I have the right to tell anyone their opinion is wrong and how they should act because of it.

Ice

Aloha !

Apart from point 3 none of it has anything to do with the music on the record. I'm not talking how the band is different as a unit, I'm talking as to how the songs are so incredibly different from a One Direction song. After all, we're judging the music here, right?

Like Alphavictim says, no one listens to Bon Jovi for their lyrics (anymore). I reckon fans of One Direction pay more attention to what they sing about than the average Bon Jovi fan.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

Right Iceman, here's the original post that you objected to.

You've accused me of:

1. Telling someone to get off the board.
2. Being the one who decides who is a fan and who isn't.
3. Thinking I know what a Bon Jovi fan is like.
4. Saying someone has no right to be on the board.
5. Giving orders to someone.
6. Telling people what to think.

If the basis for your agument is that you think there is a possibility that Bon Jovi fans, generally, would prefer the 1D album to WAN then you're past redemption.

I've not tried to "define a Bon Jovi fan". I've assumed that the majority would prefer a Bon Jovi album to 1D. That's a fairly reasonable assumption given that all of us are, you know, fans of Bon Jovi by definition. Inidentally, liking or disliking an album doesn't define a person.

Now as for irony. You've also accused me of trying to claim that I know people when I shouldn't. Yet you proclaimed me a blind follower. That isn't true and you can't back it up.

Irony is defined in the Oxford English Dictionary as:

"a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often wryly amusing as a result"

You expected that I tried to "know all Bon Jovi fans" which I didn't. Yet you made an assumption about me specifically which was wrong and that you can't really back up. That's irony according to one of the two bibles of the English language.

And finally, I'm a Take That fan and they're who I described as the daddy of boybands. Which may be an overstatement given there have been boybands since there has been music but it does illustrate that another one of your assumptions about me was wrong and that you look before you leap when posting because you assumed I was talking about Bon Jovi.

Are you claiming to know all Bon Jovi fans and what they listen to on an album?

Iceman will be all over you for this... :-)

No, my arguments basis (this part of it) is the fact that YOU say they won't. I don't care who favours what, I couldn't care less. I don't like either. And BTW, I'm a Bon Jovi fan.

There you do it again. You don't know. You CAN'T know, so why try?

Like I said, I don't claim to know you, nor do I want to, but you act like a blind follower, ie. you believe that Bon Jovi albums sell because of their quality and you define a die-hard as someone who buys every album, no matter what. Me saying that you act like that is a fact, not ironic.

I didn't expect anything, you did. The posts are still up for anyone to read.

I didn't make an assumption, I said you act like a blind follower. Which you do. And still, even if I was wrong, it wouldn't be ironic. You really don't seem to understand what you read. What would be ironic in this situation, would be if I called you a blind follower, but it would turn out to be not true, but that I would be one instead. That would be ironic, not a flase assumption (which I didn't make, just to be clear).

I didn't assume anything. Once again, your grasp of sarcasm and English seems a bit loose. If you want to define a father of boy bands, you'd have to way into history, to bands like Bay City Rollers. Even NKOTB have a lot more muscle to claim the title that Take That.

I called Bon Jovi a boy band, because that's what they've become. They use outside writers all the time, write disposable pop songs and produce albums they think will be "relevant" and sell well. It's not a rock band any more.

So, you underestimate the intelligence of others and over-estimate yours. You still said Panda wasn't a real fan and told him to stop posting here. You claim you can't be a die-hard if you don't buy all the albums and you say you can define a Bon Jovi fan buy knowing which albums he likes.

You're wrong on all accounts.

Ice

Ok, we can go around in circles and I can continue to show how you either can't understand facts or have gone so far down the route of being wrong that you can't turn back without ruining your 'credibility'. I'm happy enough to do that if you want. Your aggressive posting, full of overstatement and lies doesn't deter me. Makes me laugh if anything.

I'll just take the above.

1. I never said Panda wasn't a real fan.
2. I never told him to stop posting here.
3. I never said you can't be a die hard if you don't buy all the albums.
4. I never tried to define any Bon Jovi fans. I just made a reasonable assumption (like you did about BSWJBJ members and Seb did about all Bon Jovi fans)

That's four mistruths in two sentences. Well done son, you're on target for a world record there.

You clearly don't understand why what you did was ironic. But it was and you saying it wasn't doesn't change that. Also taking one of my quotes about irony above and distorting it to try and rescue your failed argument is a bit disingenuous but I've come to expect that from you. That sort of carry on is the last refuge of the spoofer.

Bet you regret sticking your nose in now.

Stick to talk of cow farts and let the big boys talk some sense in peace.

Must pull you up on this one too. You didn't say I "act like a blind follower" and you did make an assumption about me.

You said, and I quote:

That's definitive buddy. You've no wriggle room on this one. But it's just the latest in a series of over-reactions, mistruths and downright lies from an incoherent, bluster-filled, immature keyboard warrior who has a penchant for cow farts.

This is one of the stupidest debates I've ever read.

And I think one of you should define "blind fan"

If you are a New York Yankees fan and they have a few bad seasons do you stop going to games? Lets say they had a couple of ok years but didnt make the playoffs. Do you stop being a fan? Do you jump ship and become a Boston fan? Or do you look at their legacy and stay dedicated for life?

I know what most of you would do. I would love to see how some of you cope in real-life. With careers, relationships, friends.

From '83 to '00 Bon Jovi left a legacy behind. From '00 to current they are still having great moments although maybe not constant. If Jon wants to do something outside the box for artistic satisfaction, I back him.

At this point there is more to being a fan than an album ranking a 10 or not.

This new album is very good. Its got the Bon Jovi sound with Bon Jovi lyrics. Is it as great as Slippey? Hell No! But I do credit Jons longevity on change and staying true.

The differnce between me and a backstage member is, I will rip up Jon. Just like I'd rip up the Yankees for not performing. But I'll always support and be a dedicated fan.

Character People!!!!!

Agree with most of what you posted here.

To me, a blind fan is someone who sees nothing but positive in something. That they're so blinded by their fandom that they can see no wrong in what their idol does. That certainly isn't me as a quick search of some of my posts will show and I don't think it's you either.

Look, I was a Bryan Adams fan. Like some of his older stuff. However, I don't like his new stuff. I don't think it's worse than something I think is bad (which Panda has already admitted he does in terms of WAN) but if I did, I wouldn't go posting on a Bryan Adams message board. That's a waste of time to me and just a negative thing to do. Ditto with U2 and Oasis towards the end of their run. I don't understand that mentality.

Either way, if Panda wants to run Bon Jovi down 24 hours a day on a this board, then that's up to him. I think that's a waste of his time but it's his time to waste and it's my opinion to have that he's wasting his time. I never did, or never would, tell him not to post here. That's just another poster spinning stuff because he stuck his nose in and bit off more than he can chew.

There is a difference between loving everything and accepting everything for what it is. I look at the big picture. 30 years is a long time and a ton of music if you throw in solos, box sets, B-sides, covers, compilations, etc....

The number is well over 400, close to 500 songs. Do I love every single one of them? Absolutely not. But I can say I love a certain percentage of them and that is enough for me to continue as a die-hard fan.

Is a song like "Do It To Ya" going to change my opinion of the band? No because I accept it for what it is. Is it in my collection, yes! As a fan I like to go back and re-listen to songs like this because there are certain things I didn't notice at the time that are clearer now because of the changed time/band. Also as a fan, I collect all Bon Jovi music. However this song is not a fraction of what this band has done.

This new album is actually pretty good. The more and more you listen to it, the more and more I'm really digging it. There are some great ones on here, there are some good ones on here, and there are some ones on here I accept.

Pretty much agree with that. There are a bunch of Bon Jovi songs that I think are garbage. I'd guess most are since 2000 so I can see a decline but I know that the trend is the same with most artists and most people in their careers.

There is enough to keep me coming back. There is enough to make me get any Bon Jovi song I can. Not because I'll like them all. For instance, I hated These Days originally. I got into the band with Always and Crossroad and expected the big choruses and anthems. When I first played These Days I thought "What the **** is this rubbish". Within months it was my favourite album of all time and remains that today.

Then there are songs like Complicated, Everyday, WGIGO or Live Before I Die that I hated on first listen and hate even more now. Still glad I have them in the collection though.

As expected the album is as bad as, if not worse than, The Circle. I don't care what a bunch of fanboys claim, I don't need to listen to crap more than once, and this album sounded like crap. If you listen to anything enough times, you'll like it eventually. So we should all just listen to it to death ntil we're hardcore die-hard fans of the crap Bon Jovi has released. I didn't buy the last one, I won't buy this one either.

Ok, sports. So when a team fails to deliver, theres often change in personnel. Used-up has-beens never tend to carry any team, so they are replaced. Is that what you would want from BJ as well? Guys seem to have lost their ability to write and perform kick-ass anthems, let's have them replaced. As long as name remains. Supporting teams, well. You support the team, not a single member. Everyone is replaceable. As long as it works for the team. To make it short, you just can't compare sport and music.


New album then.
Good? I disagree. This is strictly opinion related though.

Bon Jovi sound? No. Not at all. It's Shanks-sound. Nothing too posivite about it. Watered down, playing it safe to please certain masses.

Bon Jovi lyrics? No. Trying to be relevant, which actually is not typical, or even working.

Longevity? I'd call it stubborn. Staying true? Well, staying true to attempts to be on the day & maximizing profit. Doing so, creativity is sacrificed.

Character, again. Indeed. Joviland needs character instead of asskissing. So people, be true to yourselves, show some character and admit that new products is failure.

I've always said I love Bon Jovi like I love my football team in the UK. No matter how shit they are I will always support them through thick and thin

You’re talking about 2 different things here.

1. When a team fails to deliver, they do not necessarily get rid of players, especially ones with contracts. They replace the managers which in this scenario would be considered the producer.

2. As far as players getting too old to perform. True, but a rock star has a longer career longevity. If players retire at 40, they stop having perfect years at 35 however they are still very effective especially in clutch situations. Bon Jovi are at that 35 year point.


But regardless of the above, you are missing the overall point so I'll spell it out for you. It's not about comparing sports and music. It's about comparing loyalty to something you believe in. I just happened to use sports. It could be a job that you love that had some bad years. You seem like a pretty creative guy. I'm sure you could come up with some others on you own.

1. True. Though when it comes to BJ they already have changed the producer ;)

2. Hmmm. You got something there. Though I do think that generally, even if rock stars have longer careers they necessarily dont have longer peaks. But enough of sports comparisons since it just doesn't work.

But anyway, I don't think you even can compare loyalty to music to something else. Most cases loyalty is based on so different things. Some things are for life, for example location based. Music, it's all about enjoying the damn thing. Not the looks, home town, nationality or so on. Its all about the tunes we can find our own in some way. Loving the music is what builds up the loyalty. Or did, actually. I don't see any loyalty in forcefully listening to things like, recent BJ album(s), which I really really dislike. As I don't see any point in doing so.

From my point of view, when it comes to music, it does show a lot of loyalty when people still bother talking about band like Bon Jovi even if they dislike past 10 years. Instead of forgetting all about the band, some of us enjoying the past not the present, still follow their career. What do you call that then?

What you don't get is that you don't have any facts. All you have are opinions you claim to be facts. You've yet to show me or tell me a single thing that could be regarded as a fact.

Good that you're having fun. Overstatements and lies? I seriously doubt your ability to understand written text.

A direct quote: I think that's pretty self-explanatory.

Again, direct quote: Again, there's only one way to understand that.

And I never said that you said so. What I said that you seem like a blind follower, because of what you post here and how you liken yourself to RDKopper.

Again, direct quotes from you:
Once again, it's pretty self-explanatory up there.

Because it wasn't. You really, REALLY don't know what irony means. That's ok, many people make the same mistake. You're not alone.

Anything I've quoted, I've quoted exactly as they were. No distorting anywhere. Anyone can look them up, and unless you've edited the posts (which BTW shows), the quotes are exactly as I've quoted them.

Why would I regret anything? Because you think you've "won"? You acted idiotically, it was pointed out to you and you just keep on doing it. The only thing I'd regret was that I clearly misjudged your ability to see what you do.

Oooh, big boys. Big boys who're too afraid to let people know how old they are must be REALLY big boys.

I've made my point for enough times and with enough of your quotes that even the thickest skull oughta be penetrated by know. You tried to tell others what a Bon Jovi fan can or can't listen and where they can or can't post. That's just stupid.

Ice

Depends on the player. Some are excellent in their 40s, some have to give up before 30.

In music, there are those that can do it well in their 50s and even 60s. Bon Jovi looks like one of those who should've given it up after 25 years. They can't play like they used to. No matter who the "manager" is.

Ice

That is so untrue

Ok, so you really think they play YGLABN as good or better than they used to? Or Livin' On A Prayer? Or Always? Or Santa Fe? Or basically anything they did pre-2000.

They have no hope in hell sounding as good as they did, mainly because of Jon, but also because of Richie's guitar sound and the extra players ruining the sound.

Ice

Ah Alanis, again with the overstatement here. I didn't tell anyone what they can and can't listen to. You have no concept of the subtlety of language. There is a difference between suggesting something, offering and opinion and TELLING someone to do something. You don't get that.

You also don't understand the concept of a reasonable assumption. If I'm on a Bon Jovi board, it's reasonable to assume that the people posting prefer Bon Jovi to something that they deem not very good. People do this, businesses do it all the time...Jeez even you do it when you label people on BSWJBJ blind followers. Seb did it when he said that no one listens to Bon Jovi for lyrics anymore. If I'm guilty of assuming that people on a Bon Jovi board like Bon Jovi more than something they don't think is very good, I think that's reasonable and certainly not deserving of your subtle-as-a-sledgehammer, bull-in-a-china-shop response.

I'll try the irony thing one last time for you and I'm going to use your little definition to help you with it....

"an incongruity between the actual result of a sequence of events and the normal or expected result"

With me so far Alanis? Ok, you said to me:

"Don't think you know how Bon Jovi fans think. You don't. You know yourself. Stick to that."

So what you EXPECTed was that I was making judgements about other people and that people only know themselves and should stick to that. In fact, I don't know Panda and never proclaimed to - I just formed an opinion on what they thought of (the current) Bon Jovi on the basis that Panda said they think WAN is worse than something Panda admitted wasn't very good. Still with me Alanis? You blasted me for judging others when I actually wasn't and said people should just stick to judging themselves because that's all they know.

Then you say, and it's something you've since denied you said, "If you want to find blind followers like yourself and RDKopper...". So you called me a blind follower. You judged me. You failed to "stick to yourself" (to paraphrase you) and made a sweeping statement which would be proved false with a cursory glance of my posting history.

So you started with you blasting me for judging other people, which I don't and then you judged me and did exactly what you falsely blasted me for and what you said people shouldn't do. That's the incongruity.

Since then you've used your usual strong arm tactics to try and proclaim you understand the concept of irony despite being unable to see it. Wow, if only there was a word to describe that sort of thing. You know something to describe the incongruity between the actual result (you not comprehending irony) and your expected result (me not comprehending irony). If only...

I hope you're not trying to make Alanis Morrisette -reference, because, as I'm sure you know, her song "Ironic" is anything but.

You say:
And then you say:
I didn't expect anything. I told you you shouldn't think you know how Bon Jovi fans think. Which is exactly what you did and what I quoted. You just conviniently always "forget" your exact words.

There are reasonable assumptions, then there are those, where you assume what a Bon Jovi fans should like.

Again you're doing it, you just can't see it. YOU say 1D isn't as good as Bon Jovi, but that's JUST an OPINION. You keep saying "it's not very good" like you know how people here think. You don't. If Panda says he likes 1D album better, it's not "not very good", it's "very good" to him. He likes it better than Bon Jovi, deal with it. Assume what you want, but understand that that makes you look like an ass.

Irony isn't what you THINK something happened, but didn't. I didn't expect anything, I told you you were wrong, which you were. There's no irony. The irony is in you using words like "irony" when you don't actually know what they mean or how to use them. But do keep at it, it's very amusing to follow.

You very clearly said that he shouldn't post here. How could it be interpreted as anything else than you telling him what to do.

I've never denied saying that. I wouldn't deny saying something when it's easily checked by anyone. You've denied saying a lot of things, though, even when they have been quoted for you.

Actually just the opposite. But like I've said before, I may be wrong on that account, but your post history and attitude is very similar than those of blind followers. And also, you likened yourself to RDKopper, who's one of the worst. SO, you can't really blame me for thinking that.

Again, for anything to be ironic, there needs to be an expected result. Here there wasn't one. Then there needs to be an opposite result to that what was expected. When nothing was expected, there couldn't have been an opposite result. And lastly, there was nothing amusing going on, just you yapping about how you didn't do anything, when anyone can read your posts and see you're wrong.

You've outwitted yourself. The original comments were about you thinking I judged you and you calling that ironic. Then you claimed I made an assumption about you and was wrong, and that was supposed to be ironic. Now your saying that me saying that you don't understand irony is ironic.

Could you make up your mind on what is and what isn't ironic, because at the rate you're going, everything is going to be ironic to you in a matter of days.

And, like I stated before, none of the requirements of something being ironic are fulfilled in any of those cases.

And you've still to explain all the quotes where you claim to know Bon Jovi fans, tell Panda to stop posting here and generally act like you are the one who gets to choose who are fans.

But I'm sure you'll disregard all your previous posts like you've done so far and claim you never said anything like it. That's a good tactic, always deny everything you've done until they forget it. Too bad the evidence is there for all to see, so you can't really disregard it, even though you try to.

Ice

Alanis Iceman - the gift that just keeps giving.

I've never assumed that a Bon Jovi fan should like anything beyond Bon Jovi because, you know, they are, well, Bon Jovi fans. That doesn't mean you have to love every single thing they do by the way.



Ah you haven't even read the exchange between me and Panda properly have you Alanis? I never said 1D weren't any good and I've never said their album is not very good. Panda never said they were very good. Read the exchange again Alanis.

There isn't really good and bad when it comes to music, it's subjective Alanis.



You really do have difficulty with the English language. Okay I'll give this one more go.

You blasted me for thinking I know anyone other than myself. The clear inference is that you wouldn't do that. Unbeknownst to you, you then thought you knew me by saying that I was a blind follower. There's the irony. It's not when you think something happened, it's when you say or imply something and the opposite is actually true.



Yes but I didn't tell him to stop posting here. There is a difference between what I said and "You have to stop posting here". It wasn't an instruction I gave him.

I hope you kept the receipt from your English lessons because I'd be asking for my money back if I was you.



There you go again judging people. You know yourself. That's it. Don't pretend you know anyone else. And you likened me to RDKopper matey, look at the conversation again. That said, he often talks a hell of a lot more sense than you.


You are now turning into a parody of yourself Alanis, you really are. Stick to the cow farts.

You haven't even read the exchange properly - you just weighed in with nonsense Alanis. Seriously, read the exchange again and come back.

Its enough for me to listen them from youtube or spotify... Dont want that piece of crap on my computer

You want me to quote your replies again? You once again deny saying things you've said. The "mature" way, because you're a big boy?

Oh, but you did. And I've quoted this many times before, but I'll post it again:

Your exact words. Tell me, in that sentence, how do you NOT get the impression that you know what Bon Jovi fans listen to, that you know their taste in music?

I've read it very well, but you didn't understand what I was saying. I'm not quoting your conversation (if I would, I'd use the quote-function...), but paraphrasing on what you said and did. You attacked him for saying the 1D albums was better than WAN.

Oh, I know, Ron Burgundy. That's the thing I've been saying to you all along. I wasn't the one attacking people because of their taste in music, it was you, Ron Weasly.

And I'll say this again: that's not irony. If it was, it would mean that when you try to hit a nail with a hammer and you miss, that would be ironic. Guess what, it isn't.

That would be a direct order. And you most certainly did give him instructions.

Again, I'll quote you the part:
How can you read those sentences and NOT understand them as an instruction on not to post here?

Where I come from, we have free education. Ranked #1 in the world. Which is also why I understand what irony is.

Yes, I never make sense. I know nothing about music, Bon Jovi or anything else. But you, big boy, who refuses to share his age with us, must know everything. Like the fact that YOU likened yourself to RDKopper, and I quote:

That was you likening yourself to RDKopper and "millions of others". You did it. See?

LIsten, Ronald McDonald, if you don't have the grasp of irony, it's your problem, not mine. I'm just pointing out how you've told everything I've done "ironic" when we've still to see single trace of irony in this thread. If you don't count the fact that you keep telling me what irony is, but your definition of what was ironic changes constantly.

Ice

Ok Alanis,

I'll quote the post you objected to again in case we lose sight of it. Note, this is the post that YOU, only you, voiced any objection to despite the fact it didn't directly concern you in terms of participation in the conversation.

If you want to read the first paragraph as an instruction to stop posting here, then you're misinterpreting what I meant completely. That's fine, people make mistakes, but trust me, I wasn't telling Panda to do anything. I was offering an opinion not giving him an instruction. If you read it any other way Alanis, trust me, you read it incorrectly. Accept that there is a possibility I wasn't instructing him to do anything and we will move on.

The only assumption that I'm making about Bon Jovi fans is that they are fans of Bon Jovi. That's the only assumption you can make about a diverse bunch of people who post on a Bon Jovi fan site. The fact they are posting on a Bon Jovi fansite would usually indicate that they like the band more than something they don't think is very good.

For instance I've never had a conversation that went:

Me: What do you think of One Direction?
Other Person: I think they are terrible. They offend my ears. I'm not a fan at all.
Me: Oh really. What about Bon Jovi?
Other Person: I think they are even worse. Much worse than One Direction. Terrible albums over the last few years and an awful live act in recent times too. Singer is a prick too. Used to be a fan but now I wouldn't cross the road to see them unless it was to knock Jon Bon Jovi's unnaturally pearly whites right out of his head.
Me: Oh right. Fair enough.
Other Person: Yep, that's right, I'm a massive Bon Jovi fan.

I also don't proclaim to know what Bon Jovi fans listen to. However, it's reasonable to think that Bon Jovi fans, typically, think the band's output is better than something else that those same fans don't think is very good.

Ok let's take your hammer example Alanis. It's not ironic if I take a swing with a hammer and miss. Funny maybe. Ironic, no. But what if I take the hammer off you and say "You're absolutely hopeless with a hammer, I'll show you how it's done". I then take a swing and miss completely and smack my other hand. Is that ironic Alanis?

I'll take the RDkopper bit actually. I did say that originally. I didn't realise you were referencing from a separate conversation with StoneDeaf earlier in the thread. But it wasn't just RDKopper I mentioned, it was anyone who likes what Bon Jovi's recent output. Rdkopper only got a mention because StoneDeaf was having a pop at him. You seem to be labelling anyone who likes Bon Jovi's output a "blind follower" and think they should go to BSWJBJ to find like minded people. So is it a case that this site is not for people who like Bon Jovi's recent output?

So the education system in your country is #1 and yet you can't comprehend any sublety in language. Says a lot....

If you haven't spent any money on extra English lessons, I'd go and raid your piggy bank and look into it.

Why is my age such a concern or relevant by the way?

Could've fooled me, and probably many others as well.

"you really shouldn't waste your time here". That's pretty obvious. It's not an opinion.

It's a possibility, but not probable. If it was an opinion, you would've said something like "I think", "In my opinion" or "to me this is...". "You really shouldn't waste your time here" isn't an opinion.

But there you would be wrong. You don't know that. You can't know that. You were talking about a new album, which many think is crap. If that's the case, there are probably a lot of fans who actually think that there are a lot of things they "don't think is very good" that are better than the piece of crap.


Yes, that would be ironic. But the thing is, nothing like that has happened here. In your mind you expected something to happen, you assumed. That doesn't qualify as ironic. Me saying you don't understand irony and you disagreeing isn't ironic. You claiming I judged you when I told you not to judge, isn't ironic. If anything THAT would be hypocritical, which is why I didn't do that.

Irony needs a commonly agreed on result for it to work. Your own expectations that are not met don't create irony.

Like I said, I based my opinion on everything you've posted and how you've acted here. I wasn't talking about "the last 30 posts in this thread".

I don't care if you like their recent works or not. And I don't lable people blind followers, RDKopper has labled himself as one. He's said he loves anything the bands does. That's pretty much the definition.

What I do have a problem with is people like you who keep saying that people who DON'T like the new stuff should go away.

Ok, let's have this conversation in your third language. Which one would that be?

Oh, getting into personal insults? I'm quite happy with my English, thank you very much. I'd like to see you try a different language than your mother tongue. Take a pick, I'll try to understand.

Because you keep saying how "adult" and "mature" you are ("big boys"), act like a teenager and hide your age from your profile.

To me, that screams "15-year-old trying to be important".

Ice