John Shanks
 

What are people’s views on Shanks? Is he truly responsible for the current sound? How much blame can be laid at his door for Richie’s departure?

Does his continued presence impinge on your love of the band and moreover threaten their legacy? How do you feel seeing him up on stage?

I was not exactly a fan and today listened to his podcast with Everyone Guitar. Suffice to say I now like him even less. For me he comes across as arrogant and full of his own importance. I also remember him retweeting that photoshopped image of Sambora gazing at the band during their THINFS shoot. So disrespectful.

As far as I’m concerned Shanks’ friendship with Jon has brought about the end of the Bon Jovi we knew and love. To his detriment Jon can’t look beyond him as far producers go and it’s resulting in serious dissatisfaction amongst the fan base.

It was pretty insulting to see Shanks up there at the RHOF performance. It’s also pretty insulting to know he handles most of the studio solos when’s Phil X is now an official member. How is that allowed to happen?

Anyone else wish Jon was brave enough to move in another direction?

I wonder why Jon decided to dump Luke Ebbin (and Bob Rock / Peter Collins before him) in the first place? It's true Crush (and some songs on Bounce) sound a bit unfinished, but I find myself missing that more raw sound on those albums (and it's not like Ebbin can't make a song sound more polished, as his work on Richie's Aftermath of the Lowdown shows).

I agree Shanks shouldn't have performed at the RNRHOF and Phil X should be performing all guitar parts in the studio from this point on (except for any acoustic guitar parts Jon wants to record himself and unless by some miracle Richie ever comes back). I actually like Shanks' producation on HAND, LH, and TC, but it's just gotten boring and repetative as time has gone on.

to me all the fault is of Jon Bon Jovi, it's his "name at the marquee" blablabla

I don't know, for example I don't like Phil X guitar work but I think he generally is a nice guy

the Rolo's pic... I think we all had fun with that, so I don't find it disrespectful, it was just a silly thing... lol; of course then Matt said on twitter that had nothing what to do with the Bon Jovi organization

some people here HATE Shanks all the way, I hate a lot of things but I don't hate Shanks... as always say I like more Shanks than Phil X

and Richie, Richie is on another level of course!!!

Wasn't Peter Collins basically fired from These Days and Jon and Richie finished the production without him?

It would be interesting to know more details about this.

Concerning Shanks, it is sad that he is so despised around here BUT... imo he has largely contributed to the deadlock where BJ find themselves in the last many years.

The sad thing is as a fan base we're pretty much resigned to the fact he's here to stay. Jon is actually on record as saying Shanks will produce until they finish. What a depressing prospect.

Part of me thinks that, aside from their friendship, Jon trusts Shanks to cover up his vocal flaws. Initially he was chasing radio play, now it's something else entirely.

Jon is also on record that the guy who did TLFR will "certainly" produce the next album (which was to become HAND).

I'd assume Luke Ebbin was let go because Bounce did not sell well, or rather, did not produce a hit single. Zero of its songs were on the Greatest Hits album that came out in 2010 (?).

First I've heard of PC being fired from TD, anybody got info on that one?

I think Ebbins getting canned could have been sales related. Shanks has put out multiple flop albums with the band but without label interference it doesn't really matter.

Shanks can be a good producer/ songwriter and guitarist...just listen to Burning Bridges in detail: some good songs and fantastic (better than recent Richie) guitar work.

So why has he been such a bad influence? I’d say the mix of John+Jon

Ebbin getting fired because Bounce didn't sell well could have been a reason - but on the other hand it's not his fault that the band didn't come up with hit material for the album. Without Max Martin, they probably wouldn't have had a hit on Crush either. Well, that's how it works everywhere. When a football team doesn't deliver, the coach is the first one to get sacked as well.

When Shanks came on board, they had a hit with Who Says You Can't Go Home and the following album was their first one to launch at number one if I remember correctly. That might've been a reason for him to stay.

Shanks definitely gets more hate than necessary amongst fans, but him being there is at least very closely connected to the point when it all started to go wrong with the band.
At that time, they were still trying to be hip and chasing hits. Shanks' sound was something they deemed to be current and I'm sure the band was absolutely fine with that. But the problem was that Shanks took that "wall of sound" to a new level and while they've had utilized loops and samples on the Bounce tour, they now needed more musicians to replicate the songs with multiple layers live. Jon's chance to go for his little own E-street band by taking Bobby and Jeff on tour with them.
But having Bobby as a permanent and Shanks taking over more and more control of the song production (also by doing tons of basic guitar parts) probably contributed to Richie feeling more disconnected with the brand that was Bon Jovi. We all know how huge Richie's ego is and in the long run, it surely pissed him off.

What I blame Shanks mostly for is that his way of producing songs has really watered down the quality of the songs. In fact, the songwriting hasn't changed too much over the course of the band's career. But since they've abandoned doing demos and all basic tracks are laid down by Jon, Shanks and a drum computer, there isn't much room for a song to develop. If someone like Tico and David only add their parts, they can put in a certain fill or vibe, but a song that's basically finished can only benefit so much from that. Dynamically, it can only evolve by them all being in a room and working on the songs. Remember that a song like Something For The Pain was re-done about 12 times? That's why it sounds different to anything. It developped and became something unique. Nowadays that's impossible.
I like the "New Year's Day" story, but it also brutally shows how stale the production process had become in the decade leading up that.
I'm sure that, at first, the band members were satisfied with that kind of production because of the frantic pace that the band used to have in terms of releases in the early 2000's. Have A Nice Day was practically done at the same time the stuff for the Box Set was done and re-worked. They surely welcomed that change of pace that this approach brought and then settled into it over the years.
And someone also brought up Jon's voice. I think that's a major factor these days as well. Not that only Shanks can hide it, probably any accomplished producer could do so. But I truly think that Jon is aware of how bad he sounds and might be embarassed to go into the studio with someone different.

I think 85 percent you're bang on but the biggest issue is we don't know the process. Articles confirm songs were extensively demoed for WAN and that wasn't a good album. We DO know how HAND was recorded (drum tracks later replaced by real ones and everything recorded out of sequence). Superman Tonight was done a similar way but We Weren't Born To Follow was recorded live on the floor with the whole band. I'm not sure his process is completely to blame if there's multiple pieces of evidence that the way we think it was done isn't the norm.

The biggest difference is the whole band not being present start to finish but for all we know they want it that way to spend more time with their families, they're much older now then the last time they did a full album together which was what, 2003? We paint Jon and John with a harsh brush when really the David and Tico might not want to be part of that process this far into the game.

You have to look at the big picture:

After their big comeback with Crush, they had two major bombs in a row with Bounce followed by TLFR... [Bounce still might be their worst official release to date (especially if you adjust for the time/inflation) and although TLFR was just a compilation, it still had to have been a shot to Jon's ego. I think the concept was great, they just over did it with some of their song choices and the amount of songs they reworked]

After 2 major bombs, Shanks enters the picture and HAND brings them right back on top again. The song HAND was a modest hit followed by Who Says which was massive. It was the first #1 country hit and also won them their first and only Grammy. You couldn't go anywhere that summer without hearing that song. Especially in New Jersey where it became the state anthem (not sure if it still is)... Not only did Shanks get them there, he simplified the process using technology and taking on most of the record making process himself. Shanks is now the King!

Next came Lost Highway - I believe Jon when he said it was made for "artistic fulfillment"!!! The production was split I believe (it wasn't co-produced). Memory is one of my top 3 favorite songs to come from the post 2000 era and the album really is a fan favorite. Although Shanks was involved with half the album, I don't think of him when I listen to this album because he obviously wasn't full on involved.

The Circle - This is where things started to go wrong. Born To Follow was a horrible first choice of a single. Overproduced garbage... Working Man might be the worst song in the entire Bon Jovi catalog... but then we have some gems like Love's The Only Rule, Superman, and Bullet. The album did go to Number 1 (and the tour was massive) but it just lacked commercial appeal. I think Jon took all the blame for this and Shanks was off the hook.

The Greatest Hits - This is where things stated to majorly go wrong and where fans started getting upset. The fans wanted a big rocker and we thought we had it with a title like What Do You Got. Jon wanted Always Part 2. We got neither. Although the song grew on me over time, I still think this was their second worse choice for a single. It's a lazy song in my opinion. No real hooks, the vocals have zero passion, and there is zero range. This is when I realized that if Jon wants to bring a ballad or love song to that next level, he'll need to sing the **** out of it. Even the more recent stuff like Real Love / Blind Love will never be Always or BOR unless he does the above.

After a month of WDYG, the album drops and we get the 4 bonus tracks including This Is Our House... And this is where fans start to flip out over this guys overproduction style. These songs are like a clone army of HAND Part 11, 12, 13 & 14.

What About Now - Do I even need to go any further? This is what ruined his reputation with fans. I don't need to go into detail. We all remember how this story goes.

In summary, I think Shanks is a well rounded musician who understands most instruments, who also embraces technology, which are good things... but because of the above, I think he fails to understand all songs. He doesn't adjust his style and put that personal touch that each song deserves. I don't think he feels songs. He's all about the instruments and technology so it's just the roll of the dice unintentional process. Great songs were ruined by his production. I'm With You, Devils In The Temple, Roller-Coaster. Just overproduced, too electronic. We Don't Run is a perfect example. The Burning Bridges version was perfect. I don't know why he had to remaster it for THINFS but I refuse to listen to that version. It's not even part of my shuffle. However on the flip side, he'll redeem himself with songs like Teardrop. He's just a hit or miss guy.

Unfortunately as Jon gets older, he doesn't want to be strapped to a studio. He's got a guy who he can trust, who understands him. He's safe... Albums don't sell anymore, rock bands are dead, he's too old for radio play, and his legacy expands 4 decades now which finally got him into the HOF. What's left? Oh, and lets not forget the fact that his voice is shot and he lost his musical partner.

Once you factor in the above, at age 56 Shanks is retirement for Jon. The best we can hope for is to roll the dice and wish that these two can give us just one more something. I really want Jon to wake up one day and say, even though I'll never be able to pull this song off live, lets use every studio trick in the book to give the fans X.

The question though is - how much do demos make a difference when they're actually done without Tico and Dave? As I said, the songs won't develop that way.

I agree with you that the other members welcome not having to be in the studio that much and spending more time with their families. But I guess they like it because the band has been churning out albums like crazy over the course of 13 years. No other band of their size and popularity has released remotely as much as Bon Jovi did. And we can't say that the quality has benefited from so many releases.
Had they taken a less-hectic schedule, I'm sure the band members wouldn't have minded spending more time in the studio. But when you're on the road every second year, I kind of get why you don't want to be in the studio all the time inbetween.

I've never thought about it that way, I think you're right on all counts.

Great break down and I've not thought of Shanks as Jon's "retirement" but you may well be onto something with that concept. He has the wine and his philanthropic life to promote now. He recently added a home in Fla to his assets. (Typical US retirement state... that's a joke, kind of, maybe?? He did buy a home there though)

The only difference I'd note is that TLFR may have bruised Jon's name but any ego should have been Richie. Remember the video, they are starting the promo, sitting around a casino table with a few drinks - the conversation is how TLFR is incredible and Richie's brain child? Maybe that was the very early stages of the dynamic duo differences as well.

I know Jon’s not one to browse forums such as this and has traditionally been pretty poor at gaging fan temperature on the likes of ticket prices, but do you reckon he has any inclination as to our dissatisfaction with Shanks?

Surely there comes a point when you accept the big hits are a thing of the past and realise it is your hardcore support that will sustain you. His loyalty to Shanks surely jeopardises that very element of his audience.

Moreover is Shanks aware of his unpopularity? The guy seems so full of himself I’d doubt he care either way..

I don't think either of them care. I've seen Shanks get defensive on Twitter and call some fans "armchair critics" but big picture the tours are selling well and they're probably chalking up the low album sales to the state of the record industry which probably isn't far from the truth. I don't think Jon's voice can handle an organic sounding record.

Sad but true. Maybe Jon should follow the lead of Billy Joel and stop making records. He’s acknowledged his best days are behind him and now only tours.
Why make music nobody wants to hear?

Maybe he wanted a more modern or current sound? I don't know but that's what I think.

Yeah, he's on another level, but only when he's not completely drunk.

The more I hear JBJ saying Shanks is his shrink, the more I think he's going to stay
I also wish Shanks could be hard at JBJ, no the other way
like Shanks himself has said: "I'm very lucky, because I see the artist. I see him when he's pacing around the room trying to find the right word. I'm always the one to say, let's record it, we've got it, let's put it down. He's like, 'No, man, let's get it to a place where the lyric is tight and locked down. If he's hard on me, he's twice as hard on himself."




it was because John Kalodner who told them to rewrite it again, in JBJ words: "He's one of the smartest guys I've ever met. That's just the way it is. He's been a friend of mine... and Kalodner said, 'I don't like it'. And it was his persistence that made the song Great! after 6 months of toil"



you know, he must also have some guilt too, who knows?

My opinion about Shanks, is a big commercial producer, but he has already repeated too many times with Bon Jovi, and it starts to be a problem, there is no freshness, the guy tries but his tricks are the same, and yes, he is responsible for the current sound of the band, with Jon, but let's not forget who is the producer of each recording. Richie has also had a creative descent in this band, I guess because of all the problems he had to deal with, and being in a band in constant movement it should not have been easy to stay on the boat for so many years.

I do not like John Shanks, but now I see it as a necessary evil to continue. The friendship with Jon has arisen as a result of the distance of Richie, and we do not forget that John Shanks has obtained several hits, from Lost Highway, all their albums are numbers 1.

I would love to see Jon make a solo album, it's the only way to hear a change.

Jon did not work with Bob Rock because Bob had the agenda occupied at that time, I remember he was producing Skid Row - Subhuman Race, a great album badly produced by the way. Then Bob Rock, was working with Metallica for years (Load-Reload- Garage Inc - S&M -St Anger).

In past interviews, Jon wanted Bob Rock to produce his sixth album, but it was not possible.

Metllica worked for 14 years with Bob Rock, and finally there was a stagnation in the sound, now we have the same problem with John Shanks.


The great thing about having a different producer on each record is that it gave you a new flavor, and... it's a pity that this will not happen.

[QUOTE=YOVANAfromPeru;1244418

it was because John Kalodner who told them to rewrite it again, in JBJ words: "He's one of the smartest guys I've ever met. That's just the way it is. He's been a friend of mine... and Kalodner said, 'I don't like it'. And it was his persistence that made the song Great! after 6 months of toil"

[/QUOTE]

That's my biggest gripe right now - there is no one challenging Jon to push the envelope.
If Jon doesn't want to lose Shanks at all, maybe at least a cooperation with another producer would help. Lost Highway was half produced by another person (can't remember the name now) and it's the most organic sounding record we've had in the 2000's.
I'm sure Shanks is capable of a different sound as well, but no is challenging him to push for something out of his comfort zone, as he isn't pushing the band members to leave theirs either. It's going round in circles.

Exactly, you said all the things I had wanted to say for a long time, just couldn't find the right words.

That's it guys, after the circle, we be going round in circles.. and there ain't no way around it 😀

It's kinda depressing to read this thread. So much truth can hurt indeed. Guess hardcore fans are the biggest dreamers in the world. No one can save this band if they themselves don't want it anyway!

"Everyday it's the same when they say that it might be the end.
In the end - when it ends - then I'll listen to them..." :)

I think the consensus amongst the hardcore support is Shanks has indeed done as much as anyone to bring about their seeming demise. He's safe though, having latched onto Jon and got his claws in so deep he'll soon be confirmed as an official member no doubt. At that point I'm out.

I so wish Jon could realise the negative effect his friendship with Shanks has had. He genuinely risks alienating his loyal fans, those who would otherwise had been there far longer than the type he still hunts with chart success.

If someone has to be depressed is JBJ.
Hopefully he'll care but I don't know because sometimes he's kind the devil LOL and as you said we're the biggest dreamers in the world...

nice topic and almost every post is right on topic, interesting analysies.
Shanks needs to go. As simple as that imo. they need new blood. Rick Rubin...maybe the biggest producer ever in modern music or a freud for others..he took johnys cash career and helped him release quality material when he was almost forgotten.
Jon needs to get the band together and surround them with a new guy who would respect their legacy, realise their strengths and produce them with a certain vision. Shanks is full of himself and his approach is more copying trends than following a path. His anwser to sth like this would be i am doing what the artist wants me to BUT a great producer must say NO sometimes, its obvious Shanks undermined Richies role imo...(Richie may have dissapointed many of us but imho remains a major talent), to be a harsh here...(jons unfair analogy) if shanks was producing u2 would he play the guitar parts??? he wouldnt dare...
( u2s one riff was found by the producer as was the intro texture of beautiful day along with many others...) still he should utilise Richies input and not try to replace the guy. i am not saying it was a part of a big masterplan just that he didnt value the chemistry of a great band and thought it was just jons name and voice...
Jon needs to change...I trul believe Jon is a brave guy..when u r on the spotlight u ll make mistakes but a guy in his 50s with 4 children, money fame etc who goes sky diving shows a lot to me...he ll figure it out. maybe not in the next album but he will.

ps. has anyone notice the new band for the acoustic events??? how much better are these 2 new guys than bobby or phil x who participated in the past?

Richie was there for the entire process of HAND, LH and The Circle. What makes people so sure he was underutilized? He was involved and people act like he was locked out of the room.

Because most probably he was being pushed out, slowly but surely; that must have had to do with him not being reliable because of his personal problems and substance abuse. When the guy finally overcame his demons, though, he actually noticed how much everything had changed in the meantime, too...

Jon insisted he was blindsided by Richie's leaving and "there was no fight." While I don't take Jon's words as Holy Bible, it doesn't have to be necessarily a lie. Lack of *proper* communication happened between them before and almost broke the band. Anyway, men aren't very good at expressing their feelings and emotions in general. Guess the history repeats itself.

Richie was kicked out of the band. That said, I'm sure Shanks' presence convinced Jon he could go on without him. I'm not so sure Richie's return would have been blocked in say, 2002...

Yes! I've said this right from their first appearance! Also their backing vocals are really strong and complementary to Jon's voice.

Yes, but being underutilized and being locked out of the room are two entirely different things. Richie could be "in the room" all day long; but the question would be how much his input was valued and incorporated vs how much was over-ridden or done while he wasn't there. It's not whether he was involved or not, but to what degree.

I see the change in dynamics most noticeably on stage whereas others seem to notice differences in the studio. I admittedly didn't follow the band until WSYCGH and the CMT Crossroads with Sugarland; and I haven't watched a lot of the shows from KTF through HAND. There are a few, like when somebody posts a particularly good highlight; but for the most part I watch the more recent stuff (like as far back as LH), or the shows from NJ and before. I'm not sure when the change started and I'm sure it was a gradual thing; but when you compare the later shows with the pre-KTF shows, the whole band's participation, not just Richie's, is drastically reduced. The shows became much more Jon-centric than they were back in the day.

It's just a guess, but I wonder if that isn't a reflection of what may have happened, over the course of time, with the writing and in the studio, as well.

Are y'all talking about the band that backed him here?

https://youtu.be/jzPzv_briDo

I assumed that was a one-off band, not a regular thing; but if is the group, I agree 100 %. They were amazing!! Their backing vocals on "Hit the Road" alone were worth the price of admission! :)

(If you're talking about another band, just pretend like I didn't say anything...) ;)

OT but I've not heard either of those stories before. AFAIK it's common knowlegde that One was based on what was supposed to be the guitar solo to another song (Acrobat maybe?) and BD was 100% an Edge riff that kickstarted the song for the rest of them.

Fixed that for ya! :)

While I don't disagree, at all, that Richie's "unreliability" could have had to do with the shift in their personal and professional dynamics, it could have worked the other way, too. Which came first - the chicken or the egg? Even before Richie's life headed south, he was already unhappy with the direction Jon was taking the band and there was already tension between them, if Bandiera can be believed.

Could reliability have been an issue prior to that? Absolutely. But questioning his worth to the band could just as easily have contributed to the increase in substance abuse and his unreliability, especially when everything else started happening. Not saying that's what happened, necessarily, but I believe that scenario is just as realistic as the other way around, given how much his ego and sense of self-worth seems to be tied to being a musician and a contributing factor to Bon Jovi's success.

True. While Richie's drinking problems are a fact, the "why?" question clearly has many answers. I can totally picture him drinking and some sort of avoiding Jon/his duties in the band because of being a fifth wheel to Jon and his then best buddy in the studio...
And I'm tired of talking about Richie's ego because man, let's face it, without him the classic sound of BJ wouldn't be there. It'd be a totally different band! So him being one of the founding fathers and undeniably the tight songwriting team with Jon, he worked his ass off to be where he is now. Jon actually said that what distinguished Richie from all other guitar players was talent and passion. No doubt he gave all he could give to this little project called Bon Jovi and no wonder he got unhappy with the way his child grew up sorta ignoring/belittling his parent.
There are no winners and losers here. The "sh*t didn't hit the fan" in 2013, Jon. It was much, much earlier. Shanks was a contributing factor, too. Sorry, can't take to the guy at all and believe me, I've tried.

I think Richie is involved enough up to and including the Circle. But the combination of Richie with Shanks production, is somehow not very complimenting.



In particular in the circle - it s not asatisfying output. Dnt know..