Lip Synch in Livin on a Prayer?
 

Hi All,

I'm a long time lurker and first time poster! At the risk of being crucified by you I was watching a live video of the Sacramento concert and I noticed that during the high Livin on a Prayer just before the solo at around the 2:40 mark, Jon's mouth closes much before the note finishes. I looked at other live videos from this tour and in every concert, that part in LOP is "sung" exactly identically. I know he's been struggling with his voice but I'm really surprised by this observation. If it is true maybe he doesn't have a choice. What do you think?

You are correct. That is definitely lip-synced.

It sounds like they are using the vocal track from the New Jersey pitch-corrected show from 2013.

Im not sure what you mean? He's not singing before 2:40 and then he sings @ 2:40-2:44 "Li-vin' on a pra-yeeer" and mouth follows the melody precisely. And solo follows right after the line.

Maybe you had youtube-related sync problems?

But talking about singing: he has very WEIRD "technique" it seems. On this video, Jon's very focused (eyes closed etc.) and it sounds almost in-tune (bit flat) & ok, but singing comes out very thin and it looks like a struggle for him all the way through. He's using the "MTV acoustic 1989" melody for many parts (which is lower than the original) and there's just some very odd feeling in his performance.

I bet he is using a back track like he used to on the SWW tour, I saw a vid from another gig that right before the "liivin on a praaaayer" he look to the back of the stage, like, expecting something

This has definitely been talked about here for since as long as the board has been around so you won't be crucified. And yep, sometimes he lip syncs it completely and sometimes he has a backing track to augment it. It's been that way since at least the Bounce tour? Does anyone know how early it started?

It's been inconsistent and depended on the state of Jon's voice. Started around 2002, he stopped around 2007 as his voice got better and was live all the way to 2015; even in 2013 H2 as he sounded attrocious he still kept trying to do it live, to his credit I guess. And if I remember correct, that very first 2015 show he also tried, but obviously failed miserably and so for the second show the crew started playing that 2013 Metlife recording.

Nowadays, he sings on top of the playback, but the playback part gets removed from those official soundboard recordings.

And yes, it's been discussed to death, I'm baffled how people still question this at this stage, or even worse, try to make the case that Jon is "in fact singing live"

yeah... :rolleyes:

I'm just wondering if that's the only part of the song(s) where he uses the backing track, or if any of those high notes before or in the chorus (in LOAP) are from that backing track, as well?

Could explain why he sounds so weird on the lower parts and then good on the higher parts. Maybe one could even trigger that based on the melody line, if the backing track is tempo-synched (or they're playing to a click track)? Like if the melody goes higher than X, then turn up the backing track, otherwise turn it down. Just a thought...

They got backing vocals for the chorus in Prayer since at least 2000, I guess even earlier than that. And the band sings on top of that.

Yes, they're playing Prayer to a click track (I think they've been doing it onthat song since the the SWW tour). And they got someone sitting backstage at some special rack who is just there for triggering the needed loops and backing tracks. Someone mentioned before that Jon must've looked down to someone backstage right before the much discussed line in LOAP, so they might actually rely on eye contact for certain critical parts.

Makes sense, but wouldn't work quite the way I meant. I meant that if any note higher than a certain threshold automatically comes from the backing track and the rest does not. But forget it, I just realized that that would've been noticeable on the soundboard recordings, since the backing track is (obviously, for whatever reason) not used/mixed in there...

Jovi uses backing tracks for quite a few songs live, mostly backing vocals. Knockout, THINFS, Roller Coaster, It's My Life, We Don't Run, Devils In the Temple, Have a Nice Day, Prayer etc. Most songs uses lot of layers with backing vocals in the studio which makes them hard to recreate without backing tracks live.

Yeah, but I was talking about lead vocals. Maybe the term backing track isn't quite right for that, but you know what I mean ;-)

Even as far back as 93 the band had a huge bank of computers providing backing vocals.

So wait, does the band use tracks for their backing vocals?????????

Could anyone confirm this because that's DEFINITELY NOT obvious to anyone and is TOTALLY the subject of this thread; and DEFINITELY NOT the tracks for Jon's lead vocal parts... :rolleyes:

There is a mix of both live backing vocals and additional pre-recorded ones.

The part before the solo has for the most part have had a backing track; for 1987-2012 it was the one downtuned from the original song itself. For the SWW tour Jon screamed on top of it, then on the two succeeding tours he's wildly inconsistent (sometimes he'd sing, sometimes he'd just lip-sync the way out of it, hence the stink eye in Chile 1990 when the track failed to play).

TD onwards he'd sing the part, then the track was dropped from LH (when he changed the way that part is sung) until BWC. Then during the first night at Macau in 2015 they used a new track to lipsync to (after all, given the state of his voice, it's more believable to listen to a nasal backing track than, say, the original recording. Not to mention the latter is inconsistent with the way he's been singing it for the past 10 years). The Greenville soundboard shows the he still sings on top of it, which is why I'm puzzled at why he still continues to use it.

I can tell you with 100% certainty that NOTHING is removed from the "official recordings". I know the people who do the post on them and they do nothing but track them, tag them and send them out to be downloaded.

You know Obie? ;-) Or who does the post on those? They do a good job BTW, the band sounds real good on it. Jon so and so, mainly, because the vocal levels are varying way too much. And are too dry. Maybe add a little compression and reverb on them?

But back to the topic: maybe nothing is *removed*, but then the backing track isn't *added* like in the live show. We have audience and sound board versions of Prayer from one of the earlier shows and you can tell the difference on the line just before the solo. Other parts for example have been pitch-corrected (Saturday Night from one of the shows comes to mind). Just check it out and compare for yourself...

I'm afraid you just told him that Santa doesn't exist...

Whaaaaat??? Santa doesn't exist??? :rolleyes:

OK! Now I got it!

I didnt really hear properly on Sacramento CA Feb 28 2017 that the final vocal note before solo was indeed still playing when Jon closes his mouth.

This video shows it clearer:


It happens from 3:10 on and @ 3:16 we can see Jon's mistake. Being the professional he is, singing this song with playback some 30 years I guess he really should know how long to keep his mouth open....!

Thanks for this awesome tidbit, really didnt know!

Amen & lip sync?
 

So here we are again......

Moscow from last night:

https://youtu.be/O0JdZ3RJBzY

At 1:02:11 (https://youtu.be/O0JdZ3RJBzY?t=1h2m10s) during "Amen" JBJ steps away from the mic but I guess the playback still continues...

Other than some reverb and ambient voice from standard backing tracks and the stadium, I don't hear anything out of order here.

I'm not saying it's playback and I'm not saying it's not but Amen is one of the songs on the setlist with a blackdot by it, the others are ones we know use tracks aren't they?

Yes, exactly. Since I saw that I've been quite sure Jon is getting "help" with those long notes in the chorus by pre-recorded vocals. He's not lip-synching but he's singing on top of another vocal. Since there's no backing vocals or effects needed to have pre-recorded for Amen it has to be the only logical reason for the black dot.

Those black dots on the set list means that they play to a click track and thus also a backing track. Those backing tracks have vocal snippets which Jon sings over just like LOAP and in this case Amen. Some tracks could also have some extra background vocals or instrument/effects. This is at least what I noticed from listening to In-Ear monitor recordings.

I've been wondering what the dots mean for years, THANK YOU.

Some time ago i saw this video and wondered if the chorus was playback.
It sounds different than the playback they normally used for the chorus but also the mics of david and Richie could be higher in the mix than normal and the playback could still be running.
Any ideas?

Ohh the Chicago 2000 promo show when the talk box crapped out.

Yeah I really think that's what it sounds like without the vocal tracks padding the mix. SUPER SUSPICIOUS that the video ends right before the key change.

Oh, this is one of my favourite performances of LOAP even though it's not complete. In the Chorus, there is still the playback track but David's and Richie's microphones are very high in the mix, that's why you can very clearly hear David singing the high notes in the chorus. I'm even a but frustrated that the key change is cut out, I would really like to hear David belt out those notes.

See if you can find It's My Life from that show too. Exact same issue, really scrappy sounding background vocals.

I managed to find this:
It's snippets from Bad Name, LOAP and It's My Life. It seems like the talkbox was malfunctioning throughout.

Has someone an idea about the history of the prayer chorus backing vocals.

During the SWW tour they used the original recording for the chorus due to Jons voice problems.
At the New Jersey tour they had a recording that sounded like Jon.
After that until lost highway they used the overpowered backing track which in my opinion is Richie singing.
Then they got rid of this overpowered backing track and changed it to something not so noticeable and even left it out at a lot of concerts completely.
Phil X is capable of singing the Prayer Chorus(in my opinion one of the few things he can) but I have no idea if they are still running a backing track during the chorus.
I could also be wrong with my assumptions.
Any ideas about the history of the prayer backing vocals?

As to your point about some shows not having any backing track at all, is that the case? To me it's always been there but it's possible people have heard otherwise.

It's complicated. In 1986, the early stages of the SWW tour, there are numerous gigs in which Jon sings the high notes in the chorus and the key change as well. After the vocal problems, they used the vocal tracks from the original album.
During most of the NJ tour, Jon seems like he was protecting his voice on LOAP. There are performances of the song where he doesn't sing any of the high notes, not even the line before the guitar solo. The vocal track used seems to be the one from the SWW album, half a step down of course.
On the Keep The Faith tour, Jon's best vocal period, there were performances where he sung the high notes in the chorus but not the key change. The vocal track they used then Sounds a bit different compared to the original one.
On the These Days tour, there were times where the vocal track wasn't used, and you could only hear the other guys in the band sing the high notes. There was even a concert in 1995, where Jon attempted one of the screams in the key change. The vocal track used, for example in the Wembley DVD, is the original from SWW.
After that, from the Crush tour to the beginning of the Lost Highway tour, they used I think the original vocal track.
For some reason, they dropped the vocal tracks from 2008-13 I don't know why.
And after that, from I think 2016/17, they use the vocal track which they still use now, and I think the voice you hear on the voice track is Phil X.

That's a good point, do they need to rerecord it each time there's a member shakeup?

No, but don't you that it'll be a little dumb to still use the original track from SWW? It sounded weird back in the day when you see Jon pointing the mic to the crowd and you suddenly hear young Jon belting out "woah-oh livin on a prayer".

Thanks for the information.
In the Wembley95 concert recording is also it also the orginal SWW recording after the key change. In my opinion it sounds really different.

One won't believe how many songs have subtle backing tracks in the chorus, I'd say around 80% of the show.
That's quite standard for bands of this size.

The Prayer backing vocals were probably recorded a couple of times by the band throughout the numerous tours. I was sad to see them change it in 2008, the song lost so much power without them.

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80 percent feels high, that's surprising. Wouldn't they need to be playing to a click for all those songs though?

I actually think that they have a click on pretty much every track.

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