I dont like it,

but an album like Crush (spare a few songs) isnt Bon Jovi, neither is Bounce

YEs this would be the litteral meaning of it. But POP has come to represent it's own type of music, as people were saying, the boy bands, largely comercial bands.....
If the Spice Girls aren't a pop band, then what type of band are they????

In the UK and the States, there's a competition called "POP Idol". This isn't because they predict they will be popular, it's because of the type of music they are there to create.....

As for the negative views overshaddowing the possitive ones.... rubish. THe idea of a discussion is that everybody chips in, and controbutes. If it's only the people with negative views that are controbuting it's because the people with negative views have stronger opinions, and know why they are critisising. If you don't like this, you have to argue on the points raised, not just whine about people slagging off the band. I know that things aren't that black and white. I've probably been labbled by a lot of the people on this board as negative, I'm not, I just know what I like, and if I don't get it, I'm going to make my point heard. People are too dismissive, they don't really read what I say, and then just slag it off because it's negative, as opposed to trying to argue against the points I'm making. Sorry to keep bringing this up, but it just gets me mad when discussion, and airing opinions is seen as something bad.

yeah,POP with destortioned guitars . That's what the EVERYDAY's are.

What about songs like JOEY or RIGHT SIDE OF WRONG? They don't have guitars but they are in my opinion more rock than Hook Me Up or Bounce.


BOUNCE and CRUSHED suck. Disappointment.crap.


However ,POP isn't the same with POPULAR. POP is a term that means something like an EXPLOSION(like POPcorn).


And JOVI never concidered them a POP ROCK act. They always said they are a ROCK N' ROLL band.

So maybe Crush and Bounce aren't the same old Jovi rock. But they're not pop either. You want pop with guitars, look at Busted or summat :roll:

Keep On Rockin'

No thanks, I'd rather not! :? :mad:

Could somebody please explain for me what rock is? we are always talking about pop, but what the **** is rock?
if rock ain't hard riffs, guitar solos and a screaming singer what is rock? what makes bounce a pop album? just because they uses drummachines? or perhaps because they used the line spread this wings and fly (which is used by at least 10 bands around the world!)?

And by the way Mongoose if bon jovi makes two albums like crush and bounce, doesn't it mean that these albums sounds like bon jovi? they have made 1 album that is like these days, which makes that album a minority!
some of the songs from bon jovis two latest album are good and some of them sucks! but that doesn't mean that crush and bounce aren't bon jovi!

nope, it means they sound like that fag Luke Ebbin

I must digress, Bon Jovi is not pop. Bounce, and not even Crush were pop. Simply the presence of sound effects do not make a band a pop band. I think the main disagreement here is that if pop bands have sound effects, rock bands cannot.

But there are numerous things the pop bands don't have that rock bands do that set the two apart. Guitar riffs, meaningful lyrics, power ballads, guitar solos, etc. While Bon Jovi still persists with such things, pop bands lack them, setting the two apart. So, even though both Bon Jovi and pop bands use sound effects, it doesn't mean they are of a like genre.

And, yes, while Crush came out in an era when pop was at its prime, the album didn't need to be pop to make it big. It's My Life, though it contained a lot of sound effects, was not a pop song. The primary sound in it was the talkbox, but it was not a stranger to Bon Jovi. Is not Livin' On a Prayer a rock song? How about All I Want is Everything? The next single off Crush was Say It Isn't So. While there were no sound effects, Jon distorts his voice during the first verse. But did he not also do this in reveared rock songs like Save a Prayer? And then there was Thank You For Loving Me. This song was no different from any previos rock ballads. Definately not pop. And so goes the rest of the album.

Then there's Bounce. Bounce seems to aim to appeal to fans of bands like Creed, Weezer, etc., and of course, prior Bon Jovi fans. But are any of these three bands ever considered pop? No. The first single, Everyday, like It's My Life, had quite a few sound effects, but had some of the heaviest guitar work BJ's ever seen. The lyrics, though in the fashion of It's My Life Part 2, were meaningful enough and far more creative than anything a pop band could spawn. Misunderstood contained some "punkier" (if that's even a word) guitars, and while contained themes such as numerous other pop songs, still had the rock edge. And then there's All About Loving You. Again, like Thank You For Loving Me, this is just another Bon Jovi slow rock ballad. And what about other songs like Undivided and Joey? Never for a moment could they be considered pop.

So, in conclusion, Bon Jovi, though we may confuse genres and their limits sometimes, is not a pop band in the least. It makes no nevermind that some pop fans like Bon Jovi. That doesn't make them a pop band. Bon Jovi is a rock band.

I disagree, it was the drum loops. Plus the sound on the album wasnt from a talkbox, it was from an effects machine that sounded like a talkbox

no let me rephrase that for you....

"So, in MY conclusion, Bon Jovi, though I may confuse genres and their limits sometimes, is not a pop band in the least."

Joey is pop through and thew, and it makes me cringe,

ROck bands wear their owl cloths, as opposed to dressing and smilling for the camra's as Jovi have been doing recently.

Bon Jovi haven't written a 'power' ballad since I'll Be There For You, and the ballads on Crush/Bounce were weaker than in the past, and were just cheep rip off's of ballad's they've written in the past.

As for the riffs, there are very few on either bounce or crush. It's My Life isn't really a riff, nor is Everyday, Bounce.... at least not in the way the band did riffs on other albums, If I was your mother, Homebody Train, Bad Name e,t,c.... There guitar solo's on Bounce and Crush are few and far between. They're more guitar breaks that proper solo's, and some tracks don't even seem to have these (e.g, I'm listening to Bounce now, the guitar solo is litterally about 10 secs and is just a chord!). Although Bon Jovi have never been a long guitar solo band, they still wrote solo's at least three times as long, they were important in the song, now they just seem to do them to follow a format, whilst not really thinking about the solo too much.

Moog synth, Talk box..... not gay effects. Drum loops, sampled sounds...gay effects.
Shouldn't they be aiming their albums at Bon Jovi fans!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Aloha !

This Ain't A Love Song was their last power ballad to me.

Salaam Aleikum,
Sebastiaan

Yeah, unfortunatly non of the other ballads since This Ain't A Love Song have really been any good at all!

you all seem to confuse opinion and fact..

it's all a preference..rock to one, is pop to another......a million people can tell me that Crush sucked..i loved it..therefore everyone elses views are their own, and no one will change how i view it..some of you are trying so hard to persuade the others to change how they view it, which is stupid....just let people view the band as they want to, and stop thinking you know everything...

no your argument is stupid. The idea of arguing is to put forward your opinions, and try to convine somebody else you are right. That's what debating is, that's what we do on this board. The fact is, I know that not everybody shares my view, but I'm still going to put it forward, and defend it. Once again, if we all did what you said, then there would be no discussion, and this board would just be a string of unrelated opinions....

If you don't want to have your opinions questioned, or don't want to have a serious discussion, then you shouldn't take part in a serious thread!

I think BJ started out as rock and, up until Crush at least, are still considered rock. Things start to get a little POP-rock once drum-machines and digital backing loops are used though. The whole essence of a rock band is that it's raw - big guitar riffs and solos, powerful drums and kick-ass vocals and lyrics that actually MEAN something rather than just being some cheesy cliche! IMO BJ have started to lose that rock essence since the release of Crush but they should not be judged on the basis of their last 2 albums released within a few of years of each other. Hell, they've been around for over 20, so they should be given more credit than being labelled as pop ie. put alongside the likes of Britney and Boyzone!

Yeah, they're sound is more synthetic and musically, I don't agree with that, but a band that produced a list as long as your arm of superb rock songs can't be demoted to pop just cos they're latest efforts have been Everyday and Bounce can they?!

Bon Jovi will be remembered as a rock band, but they will be a pop band, because that's the music they're recording, and writting at the moment.

The thing is, this is all talking in the present tense... "ARE Bon Jovi a pop band". If the topic was "WERE Bon Jovi a pop band" then I think most people would be saying no, as they were one of the best rock bands around in the 80's/early 90's.

That's rubbish, the lyrics mean nothing. I'd say one of the best rock performances I've heard was an early performance of Deep Purple's Speed King, called Kneel and Pray...... the lyrics go like this.....
You were good, I was bad, Baby I just want to hold your hand
Good loving, made for two, good for me and good for you
All right, oh yeah, I need you so
Come in, come in, and lets play with sin WWWWAAAAHHHHH
Come on, Come on, kneel and pray, baby that is what I say

You did right, I did wrong, let me sing my simple song
Oh Baby, oh please, all of a sudden on my knees
YYYEEEEAAAAAHHHHH, I need you so

Cliched enough for ya?

Rock music is cliched, just watch Spinal Tap for God's sake (Big Bottom, Sex Farm Woman, Tonight We're gonna rock you e.t.c). Bon Jovi also are full of cliche's, it's what makes them so good. Everybody knows that the key to writting a great rock song is to repeat the word "rock" as many times as possiable!!!!!!!!!!

OK, point taken. :roll:

Maybe I'm just trying to pin down why the lyrics to their older stuff (particularly material off of These Days) grabs me but the newer stuff just seems bland. Or maybe I've already answered that myself - BJ are now POP-rock, not rock. :?

My point is though, BJ aren't pop and never will be (at least I bloody hope not!) They've just............................................. lost their way a little bit. :(

OK, point taken. :roll:

Maybe I'm just trying to pin down why the lyrics to their older stuff (particularly material off of These Days) grabs me but the newer stuff just seems bland. Or maybe I've already answered that myself - BJ are now POP-rock, not rock. :?

My point is though, BJ aren't pop and never will be (at least I bloody hope not!) They've just............................................. lost their way a little bit. :(

Where did you hear that one, Goose? It sounds like and ordinary talkbox too me.

mmmm...
jon is the boss, so isn't it his job to dicide how the album should sound? not luke ebbin, of course he effects jon, richie,dave and tico but they can still say no if he suggest a drummachine!
I don't think we should blame jon or Luke Ebbin, lets just blame Bob Rock! he is the one that is busy with metallica.

Yes, but however great a songwritter, and performer collectively Bon Jovi are, they're not producers. Your statement would be true for say Purple, who were often produced by Glover, but Bon Jovi have always had an external producer. A produce will always make suggestions, and will have an impact on the sound. Although Jon is the boss, he doesn't have 100% controle, he could say no to an idea, but at the end of the day if they employ a pop producer, the album will have that feel to it. The could say no to drum machines yes, but if their being told it makes the sound more modern, and will help sell more records, then they'll probably go with it. Jon knows nothing about drum Machines,Ebbin knows everything.....blame Ebbin I say!

you rock! :D

You are absolutly right! of course the sound will change if you use a pop producer, but is luke ebbin a pop producer?
I didn't know who Luke Ebbin was before crush, I don't know any another artists he has worked with, so for me his unknown.
This puts me in a positions where I can't judge him, crush was an album that was a bit like pop, but bounce isn't pop, their isn't one tune on that album that to me is pop, just worthless rocksongs (for example open all night).
once again can somebody please define the word rock? it would be much eaiser to discuss this subject if you knew what rock is, we all know what pop is, but what is rock?
my personal definition of rock is, guitars, great lyrics, heavy beats, screams and so on. letitrock told me once that he defined good mucis by define the opposite, bad music. can't we use the same method this time?

Good music. New Jersey
Bad Music. Crush

OK, I know this isn't helping at all :roll: I'd say rock does mean in some way different things, and rock to one person may not be for another. ELP is rock, and there's no guitarest.

Rock for me is about the energy, and the drive. It's prdominantly about power. Of cource, this can be obtained through guitars, and screams, but not exclusively, or not completely. For me, Bounce has guitars, without the drive. There's no attack on the album, nothing holding the music together (good riffs, solos and so on). That's what I'd say is bad about Crush....

I don't think you can nessesarily define bad music, just say what is bad about a certain piece of music, album, or band.

As for him being a pop producer. Crush and Bounce are both pop albums for me. There are a few ideas which suggest they're rock songs (OWN e.t.c). The fact that 'Crush' is what he did with these ideas, drained the rock out of them, makes him a pop producer for me. Even if I didn't see Bounce as a pop album, the effects, and the feel of the album would suggest to me that the produce knows nothing about rock music and doesn't know how to produce rock music.....

For instance, Bruce Fairbarne (I've got the spelling wrong, but you know who I mean) produced the Yes album, the Ladder. He's a rock producer, so inevitably, you've got strong organ, guitar, and power coming through. This is what he did for Jovi. Ebbin didn't utilise the guitars (other then steriotyping rock with distortion), didn't allow the music to drive, and despite the distortion had a weak sound coming through. The difference between a rock producer and a pop producer.

Do you really think Jon and Richie would let some young punk tell them what to do? If you listen to the demos, unproduced, there are still the same loops, the same effects, same guitar sounds. This is the direction Jon & Richie want to take the band. It's not Ebbin alone. The way I see it and from what I've heard, Ebbin is more of an advisor, he tells them how a certain sound is achieved and helps them do it. It's not like Jon & Richie just sit there and let Ebbin do his magic.

Ice

In which case Bon Jovi have employed a 'yes man' to produce them. With Bruce, you always got the feeling that he was in controle, he was able to find the balance between the creative side of the band, and getting the ideas recorded to conserve the same amount of power. Bon Jovi never in the past needed to pile on distortion, and very low, bass driven ideas to create power, why now? Some bands don't need a strong producer there, because their music is very bare, pretty much played as it would be live, but Bon Jovi have always put a lot into producing the songs. You never get the feeling that Richie has just said with a solo "yeah, that one will do".... I can;'t think of any actual errors in Jovi's playing in past times. THe sound is always well produced. By putting in somebody who's only going to suggest, and isn't going to be able to put himself into the sound, and add to the sound you've got a situation where you're just not getting everything out of the music you want.

A young punk will understand modern music much more than a couple of grandad's :D The thing is, if Bon Jovi are going to try to get to this modern market, they need to know how to do it, but they're a rock band, who havn't done this before. I'm sure they wuld know exactly what they want if they were trying to do another NJ, but if they are trying to keep up with modern music they need to know what it is, and how to do it, and they're not going to employ somebody who knows this, and then tell him they're doing it their own way!

This is a good post. I just disagree with the part that meaningful lyrics give defines rock music. Sometimes with pop music, there are ditties about 'seizing the day' that BJ is fond of. Same with rap, and other genre of music.

Don't forget that Bon Jovi write their own songs, too. Most pop artists don't.

:P Ah...very true indeed, Keba. While it may not seperate all rock artists, it certainly distinguishes Bon Jovi from pop bands.

i was at wal-mart today and i was in the cds and on the sticker with the barcode and stuff, i saw nirvana listed as pop/rock
ive seen this in other stores to so its not just a wal mart thing

go figure

Thats exactly what I wanted to hear, mike!
rock means diffrent things to diffrent people. The new bon jovi fans (IMl-fans and Everyday fans) do belive that bon jovi is rock, and you old bon jovi fans don't think so, which of course is a natural reaction, because you remeber how Bon jovi was back in 80'.

as bon jovi have sad in many interviews, they have 2 generations of fans. the fans that are old, have been with them from the start and the new fans (we can call them generation It's my life...) that become fans when crush came out. this is of course bad for the old fans, because so long as there is younger fans who wan't bon jovis latest stile (IML) they will make music like that.

lets just hope that this little drop in sales (bounce...) will make bon jovi oppend their eyes and start playing old classic music...

lol, I hope so.... It's funny, but there are fans (like myself) who want more than anything else for Bon Jovi to be unsucessful. I want the album to flop, I want the stadiums half full, and I want the singles to not even get into the charts. Sounds strange for a fan to want this, but I know a few other people feel this way, and I think it w :D ould give them a bit of a kick, and they'd start to get their act together