This board is turning into a shithole.

Maybe. I'm sorry if my post about Walleris' reply to my topic "The THINFS tour KICKS ASS!" was offensive towards him or anyone else. I was just a bit bewildered about whether I'm being/I've been overly optimistic about Jon for him.

However, I wholeheartedly agree, everyone has the right to say one's own opinion. Also, I didn't get hurt or angry with Seb - I was just confused, once again. Having thought about it a bit more, Seb probably didn't want to appear rude, and I apologize for calling him so. His way of saying things simply is (much) more straight-forward than mine or Rdkopper's, for instance. Seb never sugarcoats anything, and that's actually admirable. I don't agree with everything he's said about Jon, but I appreciate his honesty a lot and his no-bullshit style as a writer makes him one of the best blokes there's ever been on Jovitalk. Better than myself, actually! :D

And no, I don't think I'm stupid as a somewhat optimistic fan, but I don't think that constructive criticism is wrong either. I know a lot of you are disappointed with the band (especially Jon) nowadays, and I agree with many of your points (including several of Walleris' and Seb's opinions about Jon's vocals). In fact, here's my analysis of his voice nowadays.

Jon no longer sings embarrassingly out of tune (apart from RYH, BWC, WSYCGH, HAND and BM) and seems to be somewhat regaining a bit of his past range - something that he was largely unable to display from late '13 to late '16. For me, the biggest problem about his current voice is his tone. It sounds awfully thin and forced. For the most part, he's whispering the lower parts and shouting the higher ones, not singing them. His voice also cracks pretty often nowadays - sometimes even many times during one single gig - and he clearly has big problems with his breathing technique while singing. The rasp, attack, energy and aggression are basically gone as well.

His range is also extremely inconsistent, as in general he seems to struggle more with his low/middle register than he does with his high one. I don't know how it's possible, but show after show he manages to hit all the high "on a BED of nails..." parts on BOR as well as the long, high "lay my hands on YOOOOOUUUUU..." on LYHOM and occasionally even some parts of the choruses on Always, whereas even the verses - let alone the choruses - of BWC and WSYCGH fall terribly flat + out of breath every single time.

Right now, it seems like that Jon is using several different techniques while singing. None of them are really working, as pretty much every note that comes out of Jon's mouth nowadays sounds more or less bad. The high notes he hits sound very forced and "shrill", not smooth as they did in '08-early '13. Sometimes he misses a note and/or his voice cracks, sounding like a guy going through delayed puberty (or, as I would say, like Homer Simpson singing karaoke). However, it's baffling that he can usually hit the "I ain't gonna LIVE forever" on IML pretty well, but falls embarrassingly flat right afterwards on the "like Frankie said, I DID it my way" part, although the note (A4) is the same. That must be a psychological thing.

The middle notes sound either painfully nasal (like on the chorus of THINFS) or overly "whispery" (like on Knockout as a whole), and he seems to have a great deal of trouble holding long notes/breathing consistently especially in this register. It's really strange, because usually singers with shot voices have the biggest problems holding HIGH notes for a longer time. On this register Jon also struggles a lot with his pitch control and often goes off key/"speaks" with no real resonance during the (easy) verses of BTBMB, BM, HAND and Prayer, while he's perfectly capable of hitting much higher notes on BOR, KTF, the choruses of Prayer (key change included) + BTBMB and the likes.

On the lowest notes Jon completely relies on whispering and still somehow sounds frail + out of breath on several occasions (during the verses of Always, for example).

With all these flaws and inconsistencies combined, nowadays Jon's voice is rather unpleasant to listen to, and I'm very sad about it having declined so much in such a short time. However, I do think a lot of it is psychological (especially the pitch and breathing problems in his mid-/low register as well as the overall thinness of his tone) and on those parts I don't think that all the hope is lost yet.

Jon's vocals will never be honestly GREAT again, that's guaranteed, but there's no real reason why he'd be completely unable to improve from where he is now. Basically saying, it can't get any worse, so the only possible direction is upwards.

It's great to have you back on the board, but I have one question to ask. Have you enjoyed anything about the THINFS tour so far (e.g. the Sao Paulo show)?

PS. I apologize for calling you rude. After thinking about it, I understand it's just your opinion, and I don't want to appear as if I wanted to change anyone's personal views about anything, because I don't want to. As I said before, everyone is entitled to one's opinion, whether it's positive or negative. And I do agree with a lot of things you've posted on this board throughout the years (including most of your opinions about Jon's voice), so no problem there either... :D

PS Vol.2. Have you been reading/following this board during your hiatus from Jovitalk?

PS Vol.3. What do you think about THINFS the album?

The short answer...

I think Jon's voice is damaged beyond return. He's developing new ways and techniques to maximize what he's got left. Different ways of hitting notes, getting through longer verses, etc... This could be the effect of bad technique from the past 35 years, smoking, just a natural regression, or all the above but the bottom line is, it's permanent.

Some people want nothing to do with it while others find and embrace the good moments... It's unfortunate for bootleg collectors especially with today's technology but there are still other things to enjoy at a Bon Jovi concert besides Jon's voice not being perfect... I think that These Days performance from Sao Paulo is a perfect example of that.

I agree with you in general. However, I think his tone could still get more pleasant/natural-sounding, but to achieve that, he needs to practice REALLY hard. A vocal coach is definitely required there, me thinks.

Surely he has been using a vocal coach and that's how his new style has come about. I doubt he has developed that without help. He can afford the best coach money can buy so why wouldn't he be doing that?

Why are people so hell bent on assuming he's not already using one?

I ask myself this same question every time somebody raises the point. Jon is the consummate professional who has built a career by getting whatever assistance he needed to meet obstacles head-on. I can't believe he hasn't been working with a vocal coach for years. And practicing his ass off to improve. He knows his voice is shot. He wrote a damn song saying as much. Surely he's doing everything he knows to do to achieve a better sound.

Jon's either not using a coach (probably the most likely scenario), using somebody that can't help out Jon (because he's so far gone), or whoever's "coaching" him isn't doing anything.

He just can't sing anymore. He doesn't have any technique, he's shouting and straining on lower fourth octave notes, is incredibly nasal and thin, and his ability to stay on pitch has declined.

It doesn't sound like he's working with anybody (or if he is - he's not listening to advice or somebody needs to get fired).

Of course he's working with someone. How do you think he's learning these new breathing techniques and singing styles that he's been trying out. Do you expect a vocal coach to work miracles and suddenly restore Jon's voice to 5 years ago!? The damage is done, the vocal coach can only do so much with the tools Jon has left...